Cultist Quotable Quotes Archive

1. “We all need help to understand the Bible, and we cannot find the Scriptural guidance we need outside the ‘faithful and discreet slave’ organization.” (The Watchtower, Feb. 15, 1981.)

2. Brigham Young said, “Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p. 266).

3. According to the Koran, Jesus spoke as a baby. ” But she pointed to the babe. They said: “How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?” He said: “I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet,” (19:29-30).

4. Alma 7:10 (Book of Mormon) says Jesus was born in Jerusalem rather than Bethlehem, “And behold, he shall be aborn of Mary, at Jerusalem which is the land of our forefathers, she being a dvirgin, a precious and chosen vessel, who shall be overshadowed and econceive by the power of the Holy Ghost, and bring forth a son, yea, even the Son of God.”

5. Joseph Smith falsely prophesied that the temple would be built in Missouri within his generation. “Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion,i which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. 3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. 4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. 5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house… 31 Therefore, as I said concerning the sons of Moses for the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed.” (Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31.)

6. The Koran says the sun sets in a pool of murky water, “Until, when he reached the setting of the sun, he found it set in a spring of murky water: Near it he found a People: We said: “O Zul-qarnain! (thou hast authority,) either to punish them, or to treat them with kindness.” (18:86, Yusuf Ali, translation).

7. Sir Julian Huxley, a leading evolutionist said, “[I suppose the reason] we all jumped at the Origin [Origin of Species] was because the idea of God interfered with our sexual mores.”

8. “Fight against independent thinking.” The Watchtower, January 15, 1983, p. 27.

9. “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God. The only-begotten Son of God, wanting to make us sharers in his divinity, assumed our nature, so that he, made man, might make men gods.” Catholic Catechism 460

10. The Watchtower says, “The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Timothy 3:16)” “Awake!” March 22, 1993, p. 4

11. The Watchtower says Jesus had to be born again. (We know that wasn’t true, because He was never spiritually dead, and didn’t need to be born again).

“This latter action [being born again] even happened in the case of Jesus so that he could go to heaven. After he was baptized in water, Jehovah poured out his spirit on Jesus. He was thus spirit-begotten with the right to be a spirit son of God; he was ‘born again.'”

w68 12/1 pp. 733-735 What It Means to Be “Born Again”

12. Brigham Young said the black race is cursed, “You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable, and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. . . . Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin.” (Journal of Discourses, Volume 7, Page 291, 1859)

13. The Watch Tower calls blood transfusion sinful based on Acts 15:28-29, and this rhetorical question, “If your doctor told you to abstain from alcohol, would you have it injected in your veins?” (What Does the Bible Really Teach? p. 131)

14. The Watch Tower says aluminum cooking utensils cause cancer, “As a result of the publication of wholesome truth on the subject, there are fewer people now purchasing aluminum cooking utensils than heretofore. There is also a pronounced drop in the cancer death rate. Much aluminum used: many cancers. Less aluminum used: fewer cancers” (The Golden Age, 1930 p. 650).

15. Prince (a famous musician who has become a Jehovah’s Witness), speaking of going door-to-door witnessing says, “Sometimes fans freak out. It might be a shock to see me, but that’s no reason for people to act crazy, and it doesn’t give them license to chase me down the street.”

16. Muhammad said, “The Hour [last day] will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say, ‘O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him.'” (Sahih Al-Bukari, vol. 4, b. 52, Hadith #177).

17. Muhammad said, “O Women! I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you” (Hadith, vol. 2, #541).

18. Lenin said, “Every religious idea, every idea of God–even flirting with the idea of God–is unutterable vileness of the most dangerous kind, contagion of the most abominable kind. Millions of sins, filthy deeds, acts of violence, and physical contagion are far less dangerous than the subtle, spiritual idea of a God.”

19. Evolutionist and professor, Haldane said, “If my mental processes are determined wholly by the motions of atoms in my brain, I have no reason to suppose that my beliefs are true … and hence I have no reason for supposing my brain to be composed of atoms.” [Haldane, J.B.S., “Possible Worlds,” Chatto & Windus: London, 1927, p.209]

20. “[The big bang] represents the instantaneous suspension of physical laws, the sudden abrupt flash of lawlessness that allowed something to come out of nothing. It represents a true miracle…” Paul Davies, physicist and evolutionist, “The Edge of Infinity” 1995

21. “Evolution itself is accepted by zoologists not because it has been observed to occur or…can be proved by logically coherent evidence to be true, but because the only alternative, special creation, is clearly incredible.” D.M.S. Watson. Quoted from Herbert Schlossberg, Idols for Destruction: Christian Faith and Its Confrontation with American Society (Wheaton, IL: Crossway, [1983] 1993), 144-145.

22. Charles Darwin said, “With savages, the weak in body or mind are soon eliminated. We civilized men on the other hand, do our utmost to cheque the process of elimination. We build asylums for the imbecile, the maimed and the sick, thus the weak members of civilized society propagate their kind. No one who has attended to the breeding of domestic animals will doubt that this must be highly injurious to the race of man. Hardly anyone is so ignorant as to allow his worst animals to breed” (Descent of Man, 1871).

23. Charles Darwin said, “At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilized races of man will almost certainly exterminate and replace throughout the world the savage races. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes, as Professor Schaaffhausen has remarked, will no doubt be exterminated. The break will then be rendered wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilized state, as we may hope, than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as at present between the negro or Australian and the gorilla.” Descent of Man and Selection in Relation to Sex, Vol. 1 (London: John Murray, 1871), p. 521.

24. May Mitra grant us peace!
May Varuna grant us peace!
May Aryama grant us peace!
May Vishnu grant us peace!
May Indra grant us peace!
May Brishaspati grant us peace!
– from the Hindu Upanishads

25. “We declare, assert, define and pronounce: To be subject to the Roman pontiff is to every human creature altogether necessary for salvation” (Pope Boniface VIII, Papal Bull Unum Sanctam, 1302).

26. “Let no one of you say that he has acquired the entire Qur’an, for how does he know that it is all? Much of the Qur’an has been lost. Thus let him say, “I have acquired what is available.” Ibn Umar (As-Suyuti, Al-Itqan fi Ulum al-Qur’an)

27. “We got this man in office. I think we’re all proud of Barack and his accomplishments. Everybody I know in our communities are praying for us, every day. It means all the world to us to know that there are prayer circles out there and people who are keeping the spirits clean around us” (Michelle Obama, 10/15/2010).

28. “Our talks with the infidel West and our conflict with them ultimately revolve around one issue—one that demands our total support, with power and determination, with one voice—and it is: Does Islam, or does it not, force people by the power of the sword to submit to its authority corporeally if not spiritually? Yes. There are only three choices in Islam: [1] either willing submission [conversion]; or [2] payment of the jizya, through physical, though not spiritual, submission to the authority of Islam; or [3] the sword — for it is not right to let him [an infidel] live. The matter is summed up for every person alive: Either submit, or live under the suzerainty of Islam, or die.”
–Osama Bin Laden
(The Al Qaeda Reader, p. 42)

29. “First, I’d like to clarify that all cows are holy for us because of the one that saved one of our gods. For us, the cow is a source of purity, productivity and love. We refer cow as mother. We believe all the gods and goddesses live inside the cow, so cow urine is considered holy.” From here.

57 Responses to Cultist Quotable Quotes Archive

  1. Kenny Woo says:

    “Brigham Young said the black race is cursed….”

    This is no doubt a horrible statement, but it is also a viewpoint shared by mainstream Christians at the same time:

    God and My Neighborby Robert Blatchford – 1919
    “There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not, then, we conclude, immoral….I shall quote no more on the subject of slavery. That inhuman institution was defended by the churches, and the appeal of the churches was to the Bible.” (page 97)

    The American Churches the Bulwarks of American Slavery by James Gillespie Birney 1885
    “The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example.” Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina

    Selections from the Letters and Speeches of the Hon. James H. Hammond
    by James Henry Hammond 1866
    “The doom of Ham has been branded on the form and features of his African descendants. The hand of fate has united his color and destiny. Man cannot separate what God hath joined.” United States Senator James Henry Hammond

    See also these books:
    A Defense of Southern Slavery by a Southern Clergyman – 1851

    An Inquiry into the Law of Negro Slavery, 1858 by Thomas R.R. Cobb

    Bible Defense of Slavery by Rev. Josiah A.M. 1852- 580 pages

    Cotton is King and Pro-Slavery Arguments by E.N. Elliot LLD, 1860

    Slavery as Recognized in the Mosaic Civil Law by Rev. Stuart Robinson

    Slavery Sanctioned by the Bible – A Tract for Northern Christians 1861

  2. billphillips says:

    Acts 17:26, “And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth…”

    Galatians 3:28, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.”

    While there are plenty of “Christians” who may be racist, they don’t determine what Christian doctrine is. The Bible determines what Christian doctrine is, and it says we’re all equal. Brigham Young did determine what LDS doctrine was. That’s how we can know he was a false prophet, and Mormonism is false, because what he said disagreed with the Bible.

    Thanks for your comment.
    Bill

  3. Pilgrim says:

    Bill:

    Don’t forget that racist teachings didn’t just come from BY’s mouth (among others) but that this kind of thinking was also in their most sacred scripture, the Book of Mormon.

    http://reformationnation.wordpress.com/2008/01/21/on-this-martin-luther-king-jr-day-the-mormon-church-wishes-to-remind-you-that-theyve-been-racism-free-since-1978/

    And don’t forget that Christians were deeply involved in fighting slavery in this country and eventually helped put an end to it.

    Never Compromise!
    – The Pilgrim

  4. Kenny Woo says:

    >>The Bible determines what Christian doctrine is, and it says we’re all equal.
    >>And don’t forget that Christians were deeply involved in fighting slavery in this country and eventually helped put an end to it.

    Actually the Bible condoned and even regulated slavery which even contradicts the whole equality thing.

    “If we apply sola scriptura to slavery, I’m afraid the abolitionists are on relatively weak ground. Nowhere is slavery in the Bible lambasted as an oppressive and evil institution.” Vaughn Roste, United Church of Canada staff.

    Slavery was eventually abolished in the western world, not because of Christianity, but in spite of it.

    “Biblical passages recognized, controlled, and regulated the practice. bullet The Bible permitted owners to beat their slaves severely, even to the point of killing them. However, as long as the slave lingered longer than 24 hours before dying of the abuse, the owner was not regarded as having committed a crime, because — after all — the
    slave was his property. Paul had every opportunity to write in one of his Epistles that
    human slavery — the owning of one person as a piece of property by another — is profoundly evil. His letter to Philemon would have been an ideal opportunity to vilify slavery. But he wrote not one word of criticism. Jesus could have condemned the practice. He might have done so. But there is no record of him having said anything negative about the institution.”
    http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl.htm

    I should mention that Deists and Atheists were also vocal against slavery. I wonder, will you use that as a statement in favor of Deism or Atheism?

  5. billphillips says:

    Kenny,

    I agree that American slave holders were able to twist what the Bible said, but the slavery of America was not the slavery of Bible times. People often voluntarily went into slavery as a vocation. Sometimes the slaves chose to stay with their masters because they loved their masters. There were medical doctors who were slaves, and some people think that Luke, who wrote Luke and Acts was a slave.

    The Bible says atheists are fools (Psalm 14:1), and I’ve seen that play out in conversations I’ve had with them. Do you realize what percentage of people in the 1800’s were atheists and deists? I’m grateful for any atheists who were against slavery, but that only makes those particular atheists slightly less foolish.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  6. Kenny Woo says:

    What a rosy view of slavery you have convinced yourself of. Again, as posted above:
    “The Bible permitted owners to beat their slaves severely, even to the point of killing them.” This is Biblical. This is not twisting what the Bible says, This is also evil and barbaric, and if their were people standing in line for this as you suggest at has to say something of the state of mind those people were in, and we should rejoice that we have come so far.

    >>The Bible says atheists are fools (Psalm 14:1), and I’ve seen that play out in conversations I’ve had with them.

    Reply: And here we start with the insults.
    “Whoever says, `You fool!’ shall be liable to the hellfire.” Matthew 5:22

  7. billphillips says:

    You’re going to have to cite a verse for God permitting people to beat their slaves. I have no idea whether you’re twisting it, because I have no idea what verse you’re talking about.

    If you’re interested in finding out what the Bible says rather than just getting it to say what you want it to say, you should study hermeneutics. In Matt. 5:22, Jesus is talking about judgmental, impatient anger. Pointing out that someone has foolish beliefs, can certainly be done in anger, but would not be sinful of itself.

    Take a look at http://www.tenthousanddollaroffer.com and might clear some things up for you.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  8. Kenny Woo says:

    >>You’re going to have to cite a verse for God permitting people to beat their slaves. I have no idea whether you’re twisting it, because I have no idea what verse you’re talking about.

    Reply: I’m sorry, I just assumed you know the Bible: “When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.” (Exodus 21:20-21)

    >>If you’re interested in finding out what the Bible says rather than just getting it to say what you want it to say, you should study hermeneutics.

    Reply: I shouldn’t need to study hermeneutics to understand what the words in the Bible say.

    >>In Matt. 5:22, Jesus is talking about judgmental, impatient anger. Pointing out that someone has foolish beliefs, can certainly be done in anger, but would not be sinful of itself.

    Reply: That’s how you interpret the verse, I understand that.

    “A fools says in his heart there is no God”(Ps. 14:1)…the wise man says it out loud.

  9. billphillips says:

    Justice will be served for every act ever committed, including beating slaves. If a man kills a slave, he’ll be punished. God is merciful hoping for everyone to come to repentance.

    You shouldn’t have to study hermeneutics, but it’s apparent that you want to take things out of context and twist the words to say what you want them to say. Most people don’t need to study hermeneutics, but you do.

    “A fools says in his heart there is no God”(Ps. 14:1)…the wise man says it out loud.

    Proverbs 26:12 says, “Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.” It sounds like if you kept your atheism to yourself, you would actually be upgraded to being a fool.

    I was wondering if you might be able to give me a theoretical model for how the digestive system evolved. I’m not looking for hard scientific evidence–just a theoretically plausible model for how such an interdependent system could have evolved, including the availability of food, the appetite, ability to find food, ability to eat food, digestive juices or the body’s resistance to its digestive juices. I’ve looked all over talkorigins.com and can’t find any explanation.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  10. Kenny Woo says:

    >>Justice will be served for every act ever committed, including beating slaves. If a man kills a slave, he’ll be punished. God is merciful hoping for everyone to come to repentance.

    Reply: None of which answers God allowing you to beat your slaves to death provided he survives for a day or two. This writing can only be the product of a savage and primitive imagination.

    >>You shouldn’t have to study hermeneutics, but it’s apparent that you want to take things out of context and twist the words to say what you want them to say. Most people don’t need to study hermeneutics, but you do.

    Reply: I actually used to be a minister, and a student of the Bible and New Testament Greek. I also know that Christians, myself included at the time, would ADD a lot to the context that really isn’t there.

    >>It sounds like if you kept your atheism to yourself, you would actually be upgraded to being a fool.

    Reply: Again more insults. Is that really necessary?

    >>I was wondering if you might be able to give me a theoretical model for how the digestive system evolved.

    Reply: I don’t know, I am not a biologist. I do know that the rabbit’s digestive systems demands they have to eat part of their own feces after one trip through, sending half-digested food back through the small intestine for re-digestion. This is hardly intelligent design.

  11. billphillips says:

    Kenny,

    As far as I know, there isn’t even a theoretical model for the evolution of the digestive system, circulatory system, respiratory system, reproductive system and tons of other things. Charles Darwin knew about these complex systems, and after 150 years of intense scientific research, there’s not even a plausible theory. This indicates a problem, and the theory should be thrown out.

    In order to be an atheist, you must believe that matter, time and space created themselves. You’re denying the obvious in favor of the impossible, and this is why the Bible calls atheists fools.

    In your time as a Christian, would you say that you knew God?

    Thanks,
    Bill

  12. Kenny Woo says:

    >>This indicates a problem, and the theory should be thrown out.

    Reply: So, despite the fact that there is tons of evidence for evolution, and that it is testable and observable and that we use it in medicine, simply because you feel some ignorance of certain facets of it, we should discard it?
    Incidentally, I took the words “The Evolution of Respiration” in quotation marks and googled it and got over 9000 returns. You should never champion ignorance to prove your point.

    >>In order to be an atheist, you must believe that matter, time and space created themselves. You’re denying the obvious in favor of the impossible, and this is why the Bible calls atheists fools.

    Reply: The supernatural should not be “the obvious” answer for anyone. This is the kind of thinking I expect from a medieval man, not a modern man.

    >>In your time as a Christian, would you say that you knew God?

    Reply: I had a genuine Christian experience, yes. I felt I was close to God. But in my time as a Christian I also discovered that I, and my Christian friends were not really interested in hearing the truth. We were also bigots, hypocrites, homophobes and immoral. My conscience could not allow me to continue as a Christian, and as a result I can now live a life that does not include hateful feelings towards Homosexuals, apostates, heretics, liberals and cults. In other words, i stopped being the Pharisee my Christian faith demanded I be.

  13. billphillips says:

    Kenny,

    So, you’ve found a plausible theoretical model for how lungs, mucus lining to protect the lungs, the throat, or the perfect mixture of gases to be breathed all evolved? I’d be very interested to see that. Maybe you can give me a specific website.

    When there is evidence of design, this obviously implies there is a designer. Whether that designer is the God of the Bible must be determined by methods other than science. True science doesn’t presuppose that there can be no design and no designer.

    If you had a genuine Christian experience with God Almighty, that would imply you know there is an Almighty. If you didn’t have a genuine experience with the Almighty, then you didn’t have a genuine Christian experience, so I’m not really sure what you meant by that.

    If you and your Christian friends were hateful, immoral people, you weren’t Christians. 1 John 3:14 says, “We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.” You might want to take a look at the entire chapter of 1 John 3. If you didn’t love people, you never passed from death to life. None of the people I believe to be true Christians hate anyone. We love them enough that we yearn for them to spend eternity with us.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  14. mudandsun says:

    Kenny,

    It’s sad that in your time as a Christian you felt it was necessary to be a Pharisee. Pharisees were some of the people Jesus for whom Jesus often had the harshest words. It was definitely not God’s idea for you to be a Pharisee.

    Because you admit that you did not practice Christianity at all (did not want truth, were immoral and hateful, etc.), why did you consider yourself a Christian at the time, or why do you now consider yourself to have had a genuine Christian experience? I’m sincerely curious. There is no biblical reason (and the Bible is what Christianity is based on, whether you believe it’s true or not) for someone to be a Christian because he or she felt “close to God” although that can certainly be a benefit of the Christian life.

    I am glad you were honest with yourself and stopped pretending to follow Christianity, and I hope you continue on your search for truth.

  15. Kenny Woo says:

    >>So, you’ve found a plausible theoretical model for how lungs, mucus lining to protect the lungs, the throat, or the perfect mixture of gases to be breathed all evolved?

    Reply: Again, I don’t know the mechanisms involved, but that does not mean there is no evidence for evolution at all. The evidence for evolution is so voluminous it is breathtaking. Speciation has been observed.
    I don’t know how my DVD player works, but my ignorance does not argue in favor of the supernatural making it happen.

    >>If you had a genuine Christian experience with God Almighty, that would imply you know there is an Almighty. If you didn’t have a genuine experience with the Almighty, then you didn’t have a genuine Christian experience, so I’m not really sure what you meant by that.

    Reply: I know Mormons that are adamant they feel the presence of the holy Spirit and can do wonderful works as a result. Do you believe this. No, you don’t. Christians, like my mormon friends, like my pagan friends, can easily deceive themselves. People experience ghosts all the time. Do ghosts exists? No, of course not.
    My experience was real, but it was a real deception. We all have moments where we feel wonderful, but too many of us attribute it to some any source of our choosing.

  16. Kenny Woo says:

    >>It was definitely not God’s idea for you to be a Pharisee.
    Because you admit that you did not practice Christianity at all (did not want truth, were immoral and hateful, etc.), why did you consider yourself a Christian at the time, or why do you now consider yourself to have had a genuine Christian experience?

    Reply: Oh no, i was completely a Christian. Being a Christian in today’s world means being a Pharisee. When you assert that your definition of Christianity is the only true one, you are a Pharisee. When you post an article condemning Mormons for something your own faith did all along, that is being a Pharisee. Being a Christian, especially a Christian apologist means not being interested in truth, you are only interested in proving yourself right at the expense of others.
    On being immoral: When you argue against and belittle homosexuals – that is immoral. When you argue against certain medical practices and scientific research that will benefit humankind – that is immoral. When you shun friends and family because of a difference in theology – that is immoral. When you castigate others (cults, apostates, liberals, gays, heretics) – that is immoral. When yours is a hope that God will rapture you and kill everyone else – that is immoral. Any system of teaching that includes eternal hellfire torment is immoral.
    Need I go on.?

    On truth: When you have to rewrite history (Christianity was responsible for emancipation of slaves for instance), you are not interested in truth. When you say irresponsible things about evolution, you are not interested in truth. When you make rash statements about the state of the world, and about morality, you are not interested in truth.

    But all these things define the modern Christian.

  17. billphillips says:

    Kenny,

    While you may not know how a DVD player works, that information is readily available. I’ve tried to find information on various evolutionary topics, and I can’t find it. This shows a fundamental flaw in the theory. Don’t you agree? It’s not like this is a new problem. This has been a problem since the beginning of evolution, yet there isn’t even a theory.

    I’d love to hear about all of these practical applications that have developed from evolution. Please name one.

    So, you were fooled or fooling yourself when you had a “genuine” Christian experience, which would make your experience not genuine, and you were never a Christian. As far as Mormons go, Joseph Smith claims to have seen an angel of light, and I believe him. (“And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light” 2 Corinthians 11:4). This is a genuine experience that Mormons can share, and be completely truthful about.

    The Bible defines what being a Christian is, and for you to say that being a Christian means being a Pharisee means you’re redefining it. That is called the straw man tactic. The people who claim to be Christians, yet don’t act accordingly, don’t define what Christianity is either.

    Belittling others is something I definitely try not to do. If you want to define what I do as arguing against or belittling homosexuals, I would disagree, but at that point, you become guilty of doing the same thing to Christians. I would say that discussing ideas and their consequences isn’t belittling anyone.

    If my hope was that God will rapture me and kill everyone else, that would be immoral. Unfortunately, you’re using the straw man tactic again. I’ll tell you what my hope is, and I’ll let you tell me what your hope is. I don’t think we should try to tell each other what the other’s hopes are. In fact, I told you that isn’t my hope. My hope is for everyone to join me for eternity.

    Why do you think eternal hellfire torment is immoral? If someone raped and murdered someone close to you, and let them bleed to death in the gutter, don’t you have a desire to see justice be served?

    Thanks,
    Bill

  18. Kenny Woo says:

    >>While you may not know how a DVD player works, that information is readily available. I’ve tried to find information on various evolutionary topics, and I can’t find it.

    Reply: Bill, there is a ton of information about evolution, it is tested everyday, and we have tons of evidence of it. Maybe not all of it can be explained (yet), but it is definitely true. Try reading some works by two Christian biologists, Kenneth Miller (Finding Darwin’s God), and Theodosius Dobzhansky (Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution at http://people.delphiforums.com/lordorman/light.htm ).
    Denying reality is a mark desperation.

    >>As far as Mormons go, Joseph Smith claims to have seen an angel of light, and I believe him. (”And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light” 2 Corinthians 11:4).

    Reply: Thomas Paine once remarked whether it is more probable that the laws of nature were overturned, or that someone was lying? I believe Joe Smith was lying, something i also believe of the bible writers. This is much more probable, especially when they were writing at a time when similar fantastical things were written in pagan cultures (virgin births, dying & rising gods etc).

    >>I would say that discussing ideas and their consequences isn’t belittling anyone.

    Reply: Homosexuality isn’t an idea. It is how people are born, and denying them any happiness is truly immoral.

    >>If my hope was that God will rapture me and kill everyone else, that would be immoral. Unfortunately, you’re using the straw man tactic again. I’ll tell you what my hope is, and I’ll let you tell me what your hope is. I don’t think we should try to tell each other what the other’s hopes are.

    Reply: That’s true. Christianity is so fractured that if you ask 20 Christians these types of questions you generally get 20 different answers. But for a large number of Christians this is exactly what they believe. For others there are variations of the destructive God avenging his people.

    >>Why do you think eternal hellfire torment is immoral? If someone raped and murdered someone close to you, and let them bleed to death in the gutter, don’t you have a desire to see justice be served?

    Reply: not for an eternity. That is unjust and even more evil. The idea of a hellfire was shared even with pagan cultures in antiquity. It is a product of an ancient, savage and brutal culture. It is something I would expect of the simple primitive mind…it is not something I expect from anyone claiming moral superiority in the 20th century. The idea of a hell and a simultaneous of a loving god are completely at odds with each other.

  19. billphillips says:

    Kenny,

    Evolution doesn’t have the evidence you think it does. There are 6 types of evolution:

    1. Cosmic Evolution (the Big Bang–time, space and matter are brought into existence from nothing)
    2. Chemical Evolution (the origin of higher elements from hydrogen)
    3. Stellar and Planetary Evolution (the origin of stars, planets, galaxies, etc.)
    4. Organic Evolution (the origin of life from inanimate matter)
    5. Macroevolution (Darwin’s theory on the origin of major kinds)
    6. Microevolution (Variation within kinds. This is the only type of evolution that has been observed.)

    There is plenty of evidence for #6. There is no evidence for #1-5. Macroevolution is based on random beneficial mutations, but there has never been any beneficial mutations observed in nature. If you have one, please name it. Beneficial mutations are only the building blocks of change between speicies, and if there have never been any beneficial mutations, much less new species, evolution should be discarded.

    It is also painfully obvious that #4 is impossible. Impossible doesn’t even begin to explain it. Anyone who knows even a little bit about how complex even the simplest life forms are would be deluded to think that it is anything other than far-fetched science fiction.

    Could the Bible authors have been lying? All of the disciples except one died a martyr’s death. Jesus was crucified to shut him up. This is usually an effective method, but it didn’t work with the gospel. When Peter and the others started going out preaching that Jesus wasn’t dead, why didn’t they bring out Jesus’ rotting corpse and nip Christianity in the bud? Could it be that the tomb was empty? When the disciples’ lives were on the line, why didn’t they admit they were lying? Why would they prefer to die? Has anyone else died for a lie they made up? I think it’s clear that they all believed that Jesus rose from the dead. If they all believed they saw Jesus risen from the dead, did they suffer mass hallucinations? By the way, Christianity crumbles if you can prove Jesus didn’t rise from the dead.

    Homosexuality is a noun, and is therefore a person, place, thing, or idea. I think the choice is obvious, but you’re free to disagree.

    While many Christians hope for the rapture, no true Christian hopes for God to kill anyone. If we hate someone enough to wish them into hell, that would be a clear sign that we haven’t passed from death to life, much like your testimony.

    God is loving, but that’s not his only characteristic. He is also infinitely holy and just. He loves people, and so He hates murder. People must be punished for their wrongdoing. You might say eternity is too long, and I think this is the root of your problem with God. He’s told us what the deal is, but you think the things you’ve done aren’t that bad and don’t deserve hell, so there’s a conflict in your mind. The Bible says we all deserve hell, but that doesn’t make any sense to you, so you reject the Bible and God. You should test yourself on the Ten Commandments, and pray that God would help you to understand. I’ll pray for you, too.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  20. Kenny Woo says:

    Evolution doesn’t have the evidence you think it does. There are 6 types of evolution:…
    5. Macroevolution (Darwin’s theory on the origin of major kinds)
    6. Microevolution (Variation within kinds. This is the only type of evolution that has been observed.)

    Reply: Actually, Macroevolution, which is speciation, has been observed.
    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
    http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
    We have tons of transitional fossils that really seem to serve no other function than a transition. If Creation contains all these, then why is God playing with our minds by providing not only evidence of transitions, but also evidence of an earth far older than 6000 years?
    I don’t even know why you brought this, but I suspect it was to get me off the very uncomfortable fact that Christianity was quite racist at one time.

    >>Could the Bible authors have been lying? All of the disciples except one died a martyr’s death. Jesus was crucified to shut him up.

    Reply: And what documented evidence do you have of this?

    >>By the way, Christianity crumbles if you can prove Jesus didn’t rise from the dead.

    Reply: What do you think of the fact that dying and rising savior gods were quite in vogue at the time?

    >>Homosexuality is a noun, and is therefore a person, place, thing, or idea. I think the choice is obvious, but you’re free to disagree.

    Reply: Let’s play with this then. “MAN” is a also noun, and “is therefore a person, place, thing, or idea.” Let’s discuss your idea that you chose to be a “man.”

    >>While many Christians hope for the rapture, no true Christian hopes for God to kill anyone. If we hate someone enough to wish them into hell, that would be a clear sign that we haven’t passed from death to life, much like your testimony.

    Reply: But you have just described most Christians, at least most Protestant ones I know of. What were the biggest selling books of the past decades. The LEFT BEHIND books. Christians were eating this End Time porn up. I remember listening to an interview once with author Margaret Atwood where she mentioned that Apocalypsticism taps into two of the worst human traits: Revenge and Gloating. As a believer these words resonated with me. I remember enjoying art that depicted non-Christians dying at armageddon. Worse yet is Christian art having to do with Hell.

    >>The Bible says we all deserve hell, but that doesn’t make any sense to you, so you reject the Bible and God….I’ll pray for you, too.

    Reply: Reasonably though, no one deserves Hell. Hell is a despicable invention of a rotted mind. If you truly believe in Hell, and if you can even entertain the thought that a compassionate man like might go there, then you are morally bankrupt. I could never wish a toothache on anyone, but Christians have no compunctions about assigning anyone to hell.
    Instead of praying for me, there are millions in Africa that need God’s help. But I think we both know, deep down, God does not *really* answer prayers.

  21. billphillips says:

    Kenny,

    The links you provided from talkorigins prove my point. There is plenty of evidence for microevolution. People desperate for examples of the other 5 types of evolution try to prove them with evidence for microevolution. Microevolution is taking 2 wolves on Noah’s ark, and they mate down through the centuries, and move to different places, and we end up with dogs and dingos and coyotes and whatever. That isn’t macroevolution. Macroevolution is fish changing into reptiles, or reptiles changing into birds.

    There are no transitional fossils. Some species that were thought to be extinct, transitional species have been later rediscovered to be alive and well today. There is plenty of evidence for a 6000 year old universe, with a worldwide flood about 4000 years ago. Polystrata fossils, the salinity levels of the sea, polonium halos are all good evidence.

    You can find some extra-biblical evidence for Jesus’ life and resurrection here:
    http://www.carm.org/evidence/extrabiblical_accounts.htm

    There is some doubt as to when the dying and rising savior god legends came about. Many of them came from changing the stories of other gods to match what Jesus did.

    I never said homosexuality is a choice. Sin is not a choice, we’re born sinners. Some people are born with different sins than others. Just because someone is born a certain way doesn’t make it okay.

    Hoping for the rapture and Jesus’ return isn’t the same as wanting anyone to die and go to hell. You cannot liken your experience as a false convert to all Christians. You never passed from death to life. By your own admission you were a hateful person. Other than on History channel documentaries, I’ve never seen art depicting hell. I’ve certainly never taken pleasure in it. In fact, I hate the thought, and that is one of my motivations for evangelism.

    You think no one deserves hell. That’s fine. Like I said, that is your root problem with the God of the Bible. You don’t see how wicked people are. You think people are basically good. Have you ever told a lie? Have you ever stolen anything, even when you were a kid. Jesus said that if you’ve ever looked at a woman with lust, you’ve committed adultery with her in your heart (Matt 5:28). If you’ve done those things, you’re a lying, thieving, adulterer at heart. You’ve broken God’s holy law, and you have to be punished. I really hope that you’ll think about it.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  22. Kenny Woo says:

    >>Macroevolution is fish changing into reptiles, or reptiles changing into birds.

    Reply: That’s not macroevolution at all. Reptiles don’t change into birds, they change into intermediary forms. Macroevolution is simply microevolution that takes longer, and yes, we still have observed observed instanced of macroevolution/speciation.

    >>There are no transitional fossils.

    Reply: There are many transitional fossils. Here are just a few:

    >>There is plenty of evidence for a 6000 year old universe, with a worldwide flood about 4000 years ago. Polystrata fossils, the salinity levels of the sea, polonium halos are all good evidence.

    Reply: Then why are Polystrata fossils only found in isolated regions and appear to be the exception and not the rule? Frankly, there is NO hard evidence of a young earth but quite the opposite. You don’t really believe that the earth was created in 6 literal days…do you?

    >>You can find some extra-biblical evidence for Jesus’ life and resurrection here:
    http://www.carm.org/evidence/extrabiblical_accounts.htm

    Reply: Yes, his first example was Josephus which has been so tampered with that it is foolhardy to use it as proof of anything.

    >>There is some doubt as to when the dying and rising savior god legends came about. Many of them came from changing the stories of other gods to match what Jesus did.

    Reply: Many were clearly BEFORE Jesus, as even the early Church Fathers knew. Satan was said to have use “plagiarism by anticipation.” That is, the Devil made a pre-emptive strike against the gospel stories centuries before Jesus was born. This is so silly it is almost laughable.

    >>Sin is not a choice, we’re born sinners. Some people are born with different sins than others. Just because someone is born a certain way doesn’t make it okay.

    Reply: What a horrific statement. This type of backward thinking is all the more reason why Christianity should be abolished, and it certainly means we need to have more seperation of church and state. Aye Carumba! I cannot believe you made such a hideous statement.

    >>You think no one deserves hell. That’s fine. Like I said, that is your root problem with the God of the Bible. You don’t see how wicked people are. You think people are basically good.

    Reply: People ARE basically good. Sin is a biblical invention. Your religion offers to solve a problem of its own making! Would you be thankful to a person who cut you with a knife in order to sell you a bandage ?
    Hell also is a religious invention. If you can scare people, you can control them. These are both concepts from a primitive and savage culture. It is deeply immoral and even evil to embrace a concept such as hell. If God is LOVE and yet allows a hell to exist, then the word LOVE has lost all its meaning.

  23. billphillips says:

    Microevolution over time isn’t macroevolution. Poodles being bread into chihuahuas isn’t macroevolution. They’re both still dogs. You can breed dogs for millions of years, you’re never going to get a dog that has gills.

    Evolutionists say reptiles evolved into birds. I realize how stupid it sounds, but I’m not the one who said it. I’m not even creative enought to make something so far-fetched up. The lungs, bones, eyes, heart, etc. are all different. How did the intermediate forms live? There is no fossil evidence for any such thing. There should be tons of it. There should be half reptiles/half birds still alive.

    Coelacanths at one time were thought to be the missing link between fish and amphibians. Unfortunately for evolutionists, coelacanths, thought to be extinct for millions of years, were rediscovered alive. They show no propensity for walking. The species in the Youtube video are all fish. They aren’t intermediate forms. There are hundreds of thousands of species of fish, and some have amazing abilities, but they’re still fish.

    I believe the earth was created in 6 days, and the evidence supports it. How many polystrata fossils are needed before you say that the geologic time scale (at least in the area of the polystrata fossil) is bogus? There is no refutation for polystrata fossils, salinity of the sea or polonium halos, that I know of, and those are three that I thought of off the top of my head. Would you like me to find more that haven’t been refuted?

    Maybe you can name some specific examples of these resurrected, virgin birth gods, so we can get into specifics.

    Are you rejecting all of the extra-biblical evidence for Jesus, just because part of what Josephus wrote was tampered with?

    You weren’t born okay. I wasn’t born okay. We were born liars, thieves and adulterers. Our parents didn’t have to teach us how to do those things. We were born dead in our sin. Some people may have been born with a propensity for a different type of sexual sin than me, but that doesn’t make me less evil.

    You say sin is a biblical invention. So, you don’t mind if someone steals your wallet or beats you to a pulp? All of the stuff we’ve been discussing is just a side issue to this. I don’t know anyone who is basically good. I know plenty of people who are basically evil.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  24. Kenny Woo says:

    >>Microevolution over time isn’t macroevolution.

    Reply: Everything really is microevolution in the long run, they involve mostly the same processes.

    >>Poodles being bread into chihuahuas isn’t macroevolution.

    Reply: And who said it was.

    >>Coelacanths at one time were thought to be the missing link between fish and amphibians. Unfortunately for evolutionists, coelacanths, thought to be extinct for millions of years, were rediscovered alive.

    Reply: “The modern coelacanth is Latimeria chalumnae, in the family Latimeriidae. Fossil coelacanths are in other families, mostly Coelacanthidae, and are significantly different in that they are smaller and lack certain internal structures. Latimeria has no fossil record, so it cannot be a “living fossil.””
    -talk origins

    >>Evolutionists say reptiles evolved into birds. I realize how stupid it sounds, but I’m not the one who said it.

    Reply: Well there is Archaeopteryx isn’t there.

    >>I believe the earth was created in 6 days, and the evidence supports it.

    Reply: So, you’re saying Adam named all the animals IN ONE DAY. This is physically impossible.

    >>Maybe you can name some specific examples of these resurrected, virgin birth gods, so we can get into specifics.

    Reply: Feel free to watch this then: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WE6KqJjeE8A

    >>Are you rejecting all of the extra-biblical evidence for Jesus, just because part of what Josephus wrote was tampered with?

    Reply: ALL extra-biblical evidence? What else do you have besides Tacitus, a second hand account that falls apart after closer inspection. None of this proves legends that all the followers were martyred. Even though, even cultists are very much willing to die for their faiths, and have. It does not prove their beliefs are true.

    >>Some people may have been born with a propensity for a different type of sexual sin than me, but that doesn’t make me less evil.

    Reply: “Less Evil? Huh?

    >>You say sin is a biblical invention. So, you don’t mind if someone steals your wallet or beats you to a pulp?

    Reply: People can do bad things and commit crimes and do evil. These are bad characteristics, not sin which is a crime against a deity. Homosexuality is not a crime. Working on the Sabbath is not a crime. These are made-up crimes (read: sins) invented by the Bible.

    >>I don’t know anyone who is basically good. I know plenty of people who are basically evil.

    Reply: That’s because you go to church? Sorry, I couldn’t resist:) Most people are basically good. Most people DON’T steal my wallet or beat me to a pulp, if i may use your words. If most people were basically evil we would have anarchy. We don’t. We live in a wonderful that keeps getting better all the time. We are living longer and healthier, we have less crime than we did hundreds of years ago, we have less diseases over all, and even less famines…all because of the efforts of many people to make this work. I appreciate all the good people that have contributed to this.
    Good night Bill. See you tomorrow.

  25. billphillips says:

    Kenny,

    I watched the Youtube video, and the guy strings together a dozen stories, and says Jesus was made up by picking various aspects. Maybe you should read the stories of some of these people, and decide how similar they are to Jesus’ life. I think it was interesting that the guy mentioned Moses. There is a lot of foreshadowing of Jesus and prophecies of Jesus in the Old Testament. He mentioned stories of people being buried alive, which is not that similar to Jesus, and really illustrates the guy’s ignorance of the gospel.

    Did Adam name the animals in one day? He didn’t name every single species. He didn’t have to name poodles and chihuahuas; he just had to name one type of dog. Not only is it possible to do, but he probably took an extra long lunch hour.

    You’re throwing out all of Josephus. Tacitus doesn’t discuss the proper topic, and you’re throwing out the others for some reason. The death of the apostles isn’t in the Bible. that information comes from other places than the Bible. Are you disputing that early Christians were terribly persecuted? Do you deny that Jesus was crucified? Why didn’t they nip Christianity in the bud by dragging out Jesus’ corpse.

    So, bad things, crimes and evil exist, but you don’t like the term “sin.” Have you ever done bad things, committed a crime or committed evil? If God exists, and He cares about justice, you must be punished for your evil deeds.

    The people I go to church with are evil–especially me. Have you ever bought a house or a car? Do you think the seller was absolutely truthful, and not deceptive in any way? You don’t think people will take advantage of you as much as they possibly can? Most homeowners are aware of the problems with their homes. The entire home inspection industry is built on people lying to get their house sold. Carfax.com is a business that exists for the purpose of buyers being able to verify the history of their purchase.

    Thanks for the conversation. I’ll let you have the last word.

    Bill

  26. Kenny Woo says:

    >>I watched the Youtube video, and the guy strings together a dozen stories, and says Jesus was made up by picking various aspects. Maybe you should read the stories of some of these people, and decide how similar they are to Jesus’ life.

    Reply: I have. There are maybe a couple that match Jesus’ life quite similarly, but the gist of it is that virgin births were very common amongst pagan gods, as were crucifixions, resurrections, healings, and other similar miracles. There were popular amongst pagan gods and the New Testament was written at a time when these things were quite faddish.

    >>He mentioned stories of people being buried alive, which is not that similar to Jesus, and really illustrates the guy’s ignorance of the gospel.

    Reply: Dr. Robert Price is a New Testament scholar and has many interviews online and has written many books. He is known as the Bible Geek.

    >>Did Adam name the animals in one day? He didn’t name every single species. He didn’t have to name poodles and chihuahuas; he just had to name one type of dog. Not only is it possible to do, but he probably took an extra long lunch hour.

    Reply: So Adam didn’t really name all the animals. Hmmm. You know that many Christians disagree with you about this day. For instance at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/8449/days.html
    “On the sixth day of creation (1) God created the higher forms of animals, (2) God created Adam, (3) God planted a garden in Eden, (4) God made to grow the vegetation in Eden, (5) God gave Adam the responsibility for tending the garden, (6) Adam became lonely, (7) God had Adam name all of the animals, in search of a companion, (8) Adam was still lonely after this, (9) God put Adam into a deep sleep and made Eve from his rib, (10) Eve was presented to Adam as his new partner, and finally (11) God gave them instructions to multiply and care for the earth. (See Genesis 1:24-30; 2:4-24). How could all of these events have been completed in only twenty-four hours? At the very least, they would have taken several months. ”

    >>You’re throwing out all of Josephus. Tacitus doesn’t discuss the proper topic, and you’re throwing out the others for some reason.

    Reply: The Testimonium Flavium is entirely absent from the passage in a quotation from the work which comes to us from Origen, which is the earliest copy of that passage we have. There are also some clear stylistic and grammatical problems with that passage as well. As for the other quotation, it would have been blasphemous for Josephus to even acknowledge that Jesus was called Christ, because Josephus was a devout messianic Jew who never converted to Christianity. Also, according to Hegesipus, James, the brother of Jesus, was killed in a riot, not by sentence of the Sanhedrin, and Clement, and Eusebius confirms this. So, again, why should I believe Josephus?

    >>The death of the apostles isn’t in the Bible. that information comes from other places than the Bible. Are you disputing that early Christians were terribly persecuted?

    Reply: I believe SOME were persecuted. Outside of the New Testament evidence of wholesale persecutions of early Christians is primarily a tradition, and you can actually find many conflicting legends as well. In his debate with Celsum, Origen said that the number of Christian martyrs was “few” and “easily numbered”:

    “For in order to remind others, that by seeing a few engaged in a struggle for their religion, they also might be better fitted to despise death, some, on special occasions, and these individuals who can be easily numbered, have endured death for the sake of Christianity” (Contra Celsum, Book 3, Chapter 8, emphasis added).

    But what does this even prove anyways. People die for bad beliefs all the time, like cults such as Jim Jones. Solar Temple and Heavens Gate.

    >>Do you deny that Jesus was crucified? Why didn’t they nip Christianity in the bud by dragging out Jesus’ corpse.

    Reply: I don’t believe any of the ancient gods that were supposedly crucified were actually crucified. This was simply a popular belief amongst ignorant people at the time.

    >>So, bad things, crimes and evil exist, but you don’t like the term “sin.” Have you ever done bad things, committed a crime or committed evil? If God exists, and He cares about justice, you must be punished for your evil deeds.

    Reply: Burning people for an eternity in hell is not justice done for anything. NO ONE deserves this, and especially not for how you were born and insanely idiotic “sins” such as breaking the Sabbath.

    >> You don’t think people will take advantage of you as much as they possibly can? The entire home inspection industry is built on people lying to get their house sold. Carfax.com is a business that exists for the purpose of buyers being able to verify the history of their purchase.

    Reply: And who came up with ideas such as carfax and home inspections? People. I despise your view of the world. It is dark and scary. I would never wish your type of worldview on anyone. I feel bad for you, I really do. There are so many good stories out there, much more than bad ones. Don’t let your darkness control you.

  27. Jim says:

    Kenny,

    I’ve been skim reading your conversation with Bill and I’m intrigued by your assumptions, namely, that there are such things as ‘good’ and ‘evil’, that your mind can apprehend something like ‘truth’. Do you believe in these as having existence outside of yourself? What gives you any certainty that the ideas of your ‘mind’ can be reliably translated into words that another person can understand?

    It sounds like you aren’t a sceptic at all. You are on a moral crusade, but I wonder where your morality comes from (church upbringing?).

  28. Kenny Woo says:

    Hi Jim
    I certainly didn’t get my morality from “church upbringing.” That upbringing foisted upon me prejudices based on ignorance. When you think of it, how exactly do you get morality from the God of the Bible? God kills, lies, cheats, discriminates, and otherwise behaves in a manner that puts the Mafia to shame, that’s okay, he’s God. He can do whatever he wants. Anyone who adheres to this philosophy has had his sense of morality, decency, justice and humaneness warped beyond recognition by the very book that is supposedly preaching the opposite.

  29. Jim says:

    So prejudice is ‘wrong’ (by implication)? What does wrong mean? What, to ask the question again, is ‘good’ and ‘evil’?

  30. mudandsun says:

    Hey Kenny,

    Can you tell me of one instance in which God either lied or cheated?

    I’m curious to know.

    Thanks!

    Mudandsun

  31. Kenny Woo says:

    Jim: So prejudice is ‘wrong’ (by implication)? What does wrong mean? What, to ask the question again, is ‘good’ and ‘evil’?

    Reply: As Kant would say: “Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law.” For example, murder cannot be moral, because if it were a universal law, everyone would be dead, and murder would no
    longer be possible. Therefore, it is self-contradictory to consider murder moral. Similarly with stealing. If stealing were a universal law, the concept of personal property would become meaningless, and stealing would become impossible.

  32. Kenny Woo says:

    >>Can you tell me of one instance in which God either lied or cheated?

    Reply: One lie -” And whatever you ask in my name, I will do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything of me in my name, I will do it.” (John 14:13-14)

    One cheat – At Genesis 32 there is a wrestling match between God and Jacob, and God is actually losing the tussle, cheated by dislocating Jacob’s hip!

    Yes, of course more could be provided.

  33. Jim says:

    Kenny:

    The problem with Kant’s Imperative is that it is merely an imperative. As Nietzsche might argue – this is slave morality (but perhaps for the phiosophically-minded). Kant can tell a Hitler or a Stalin that they are ‘contradicting’ some abstract principle (maxim) but they would laugh because they hold the trigger of the gun.

    What can Kant say to Hitler when he says, at it were, ‘I choose not to make my actions a universal principle’ – I choose and create my own morality – I care nothing for universal maxims.

    This has always been my problem, inter alia, with Kant. He didn’t deal with real moral evil in his system. His morality is more assumed than proved. I alawys feel with Kant that he’s looking for reasons to buttress his basic Christian morality. It rather reminds me of Satre’s comment vis a vis his old lecturers – do you remember? He said they wanted ‘rid of God at the least possible expense’. He said, on the other hand, ‘The existentialist finds it highly embarrassing that God is dead because there disappears with him all hope of values in an intelligible heaven.’ (I’m paraphrasing so I hope I haven’t misconstrued his true sense – please correct me if I have)

    But I’d like to hear what a Kantian might reply to Hitler while lying on the ground looking at the barrel of the gun.

    By the way, it seems on reflection that Kant had not entirely been woken from his dogmatic slumbers by Hume. He should have remembered Hume’s point that an ‘ought’ cannot be derived from ‘is’. I think Sartre was closer to the truth than Kant – but unfortunately that’s why Sartre struggled more as a human being than the more complacent Kant.

  34. Kenny Woo says:

    None of which betrays what I have said above: murder cannot be moral, because if it were a universal law, everyone would be dead, and murder would no
    longer be possible. Therefore, it is self-contradictory to consider murder moral. Similarly with stealing. If stealing were a universal law, the concept of personal property would become meaningless, and stealing would become impossible.

    And I certainly don’t need an ancient book filled with stonings, beatings, ethnic cleansing, and even advocate the keeping of slaves and smashing of babies heads (Ps. 137:9).
    All Hitler needed to justify his cruelty against the Jews was John 8:58 and Luke 19:27.

  35. Sirius says:

    Kenny Woo,

    You’re not making ANY sense.

    That murder is wrong is a universal moral law. No one agrees that killing someone is a good thing. We have a universal sense of justice. Where did that come from?

    Hitler used the Bible out of context. Hitler used the Church for his own political ends. That does not make him or what he did Christian. And you’re wrong; Hitler needed more than two verses out of context. He needed Darwinism to justify his ethnic cleansing.

    Keep up the good work, bill

    –Sirius Knott

  36. billphillips says:

    Sirius,

    Thanks for your comments.

    Bill

  37. Jim says:

    Kenny:

    Hitler would say, ‘I’m still standing!’ His philosophy was Social Darwinism – he perceived he and his ilk to be higher up the evolutionary tree and the ‘untermensch’ way below. He was doing ‘natural selection’ a favour – bit of a helping hand so to speak. Hitler and his kind couldn’t care less for your or Kant’s universal law. He just won’t play the intellectual game. That’s the problem – His ‘philosophy’ is stubborn, implacable evil. It’s fine if we all play your nice game of ‘universal law’ (Christians etc. would) but not all will. Then what?

    Hitler would say, ‘I don’t care whether you consider my killing of the sub-humans immoral (although I – I speak as if Hitler -do). I’m not killing ‘humans’, I’m not killing everyone – I’m cleaning Europe of ‘vermin’.

    Same goes with stealing. Let’s say I steal land and property by force. Let’s say I become the ‘law’/authorities and re-write history to justify my looting (this has happened). What then of a ‘universal law’ – what would Nietzsche say? ‘Slave morality’ – it is merely a law for the weak because they are too weak to be ‘supermen’. What argument do you have against a Nietzsche?

    When the strong overcome the weak you might say this is not just. But what then is justice? Immorality? And immorality is injustice? When they are defined by each other neither is explained. What is justice? Whose? Where is it grounded and defined?

    By the way, I’ll take Kantianism seriously, but to suggest John 8:58 is a justification for Hitlerism is plain silly.

  38. Kenny Woo says:

    Hitler would say, ‘I’m still standing!’ His philosophy was Social Darwinism – he perceived he and his ilk to be higher up the evolutionary tree and the ‘untermensch’ way below.

    Reply: Here we go again. Christians simply cannot see the forest for the trees. Hitler was a Christian, his henchman were largely Christian. They too invoked John 8:44 (I said John 8:58 earlier, but I meant 8:44) for their evils against the Jews. This is well documented. After all, Hitler’s Kristallnacht took place on Luther’s birthday, and Martin Luther was a hostile anti-semite.
    Have you ever read “On the Jews and Their Lies” by Martin Luther. This champion of Protestantism was viciously hateful towards the Jews. He was Hitler’s model for the final solution, not Darwin.

    “And the Founder of Christianity made no secret indeed of His estimation of the Jewish people. When He found it necessary He drove those enemies of the human race out of the Temple of God; because then, as always, they used religion as a means of advancing their commercial interests.” Mein Kampf (funny, Mein Kampf never once mentions Darwin).

  39. Jim says:

    Kenny:

    I notice you didn’t answer my question: what is justice?

    Meanwhile ponder the fuehrer’s mind…

    Hitler, after losing his friends in WWI said, ‘It was with feelings of pure idealism that I set out for the front in 1914. Then I saw men falling around me in thousands. Thus I learnt that life is a cruel struggle, and has no other object but the preservation of the species.

    Plainly I belong by nature to quite another species. I would prefer not to see anyone suffer, not to do harm to anyone. But when I realise that the species is in danger, then in my case sentiment gives way to the coldest reason. ‘ (Hitler’s Diaries)

    Hitler, the man who said, “I cannot see why man should not be just as cruel as nature” was acting on the principle of the ‘survival of the fittest’ not the beatitudes.

    Hitler: “The idea of struggle is as old as life itself, for life is only preserved because other living things perish through struggle. In this struggle, the stronger, the more able, win, while the less able, the weak, lose. Struggle is the father of all things. It is not by the principles of humanity that man lives or is able to preserve himself above the animal world, but solely by means of the most brutal struggle.” (speech at Kulmbach, 5/2/28 in Alan Bullock, Hitler, p.36 in the copy I read)

    Sounds like Darwinism applied to social relations.

    Hitler a Christian? He says in his diaries he didn’t say his prayers at secondary school because God wasn’t interested in his prayers. He mocked Father Schwarz who came to catechise the boys as well as his religion. He treated Catholic confession as a joke etc. Where is your evidence Hitler was a Christian? He was Darwin’s embarrassing bastard child.

  40. Jim says:

    Kenny:

    Of course, I accept Hitler believed there existed a creator, the supernatural etc. But that is not at all what the Bible says a Christian is.

    Jim

  41. Kenny Woo says:

    What Hitler did was not unbiblical. The Old Testament has many instances on divinely approved ethnic cleansing.

  42. Jim says:

    Kenny,

    I’m still back to this question, but I’ll frame it more exactly:

    Do there exist such non-physical entities as goodness, justice, the laws of logic, the self etc.?

    Jim
    PS I hope you’re having a ‘good’ day and people are treating you ‘fairly’. I Also hope you are surrounded by people who believe you actually are (pretty much) ‘the same person’ as you were yesterday (so that they can enter into meaningful and worthwhile relationships of ‘trust’ and ‘love’ etc. with you). I also hope you believe I really mean this and ‘not’ the exact opposite of it.

  43. Kenny Woo says:

    Jim, why do you even ask these questions? Of course goodness, justice, the laws of logic, the self exist, even in secular countries. I have many good days…yada yada yada.

  44. Jim says:

    Kenny,

    I’ll try again – perhaps I’m not being clear. Do the laws of logic exist solely within human minds or external to human minds? Are they discovered or created by man? When did they begin or are they eternal? Where do they exist? Are they unchanging or invariable?

    Are you just assuming the existence of these things (self, goodness, logic etc)?

    I ask because I wonder how a materialist/atheist can satisfactorily account for the existence of such non-material entities (perhaps you are neither a materialist or atheist – you can tell me that).

  45. Kenny Woo says:

    My problem with what you are stating is that you cannot account for logic by pointing to a holy book full of many illogical things. The rules of logic are the rules upon which all rationality is based. It is not a question of “who made the rules”? It is simple, the rules have to be true in order to understand the world.

  46. Jim says:

    Kenny,

    I’ll take that as a) not answering the question and b) assuming the existence of logic a priori.

    You say the rules have to be true in order to understand the world. How do you know the world is really intelligible? Is that also an assumption? Perhaps intelligibility is an illusion. And what accounts for intelligibilty (non-material intelligence) in a materialistic universe?

    There is no illogicality in the Bible – just bad hermeneutics in reading it. The fact that people make a pig’s ear of it is no proof of inconsistency in it.

  47. Kenny Woo says:

    The entire logic argument actually screams against an existence of God. It is funny that the more intelligent a person is, the more he is less likely to actually believe in God. Talk about an inept designer.
    And yes, the bible has an embarrassment of riches when it comes to things illogical.

  48. Manuel Culwell says:

    Every New Born Baby has not Violated the ten commandments!

  49. Sirius says:

    Kenny,

    We call these statements you’ve just made sweeping generalizations.

    1] Show us how the logic argument “screams against” the existenceof God. Don’t just claim that it does.

    2] Show us this alleged “embarrassment of riches when it comes to things illogical” that you claim is contained in the Bible. Don’t just say that they exist. [BTW, bill’s right. There’s always an answer to alleged contradictions contained in the Bible, even if though YOU may only be looking for excuses to disbelive it.]

    3] You’ve stated that the more intelligent a person is the less likely he is to believe in God. Where is your evidence? Stephen Gould would disagree with you on this point, btw, and has done so in print. Atheists are a miserable minority on this planet, the majority of which professes a belief in a God or gods. Where did you get your figures?

    –Sirius Knott

  50. Kenny Woo says:

    1] Show us how the logic argument “screams against” the existence of God. Don’t just claim that it does.

    Reply: I did. See number 3 below.

    2] Show us this alleged “embarrassment of riches when it comes to things illogical” that you claim is contained in the Bible. Don’t just say that they exist. [BTW, bill’s right. There’s always an answer to alleged contradictions contained in the Bible, even if though YOU may only be looking for excuses to disbelive it.]

    Reply: There are tons of contradictions amongst other things in the bible. I assume you have access to google. I know that Christians always have answers for everything. You can always fall back on: “well, that is symbolic, not literal” or “that has a future application” “I know the writer said that, but he actually meant this” or “in bible times that had a different meaning” and so on. With this type of logic you can defend anything, and sure enough, Muslims can defend the koran and Mormons can defend the BOM (see http://www.jefflindsay.com ).

    3] You’ve stated that the more intelligent a person is the less likely he is to believe in God. Where is your evidence?

    Reply: Let’s start with the National Academy of Sciences, which is 93% atheist. I think Mensa comes pretty close. I know my own particular Christian group denounced higher education as it usually turned people away from God. Christians naturally put this down to a liberal conspiracy, never allowing for the fact that natural explanations are available for many things.

    >>Stephen Gould would disagree with you on this point, btw, and has done so in print.

    Reply: Gould was also a non-believer.

    >>Atheists are a miserable minority on this planet

    Reply: Thank you for the insult you bigot.

  51. ringostar69 says:

    I am really puzzled Ken. Why are you here? You have already made up your mind and nothing anyone says is going to change it. Or have you?

  52. Way too little education — way too much time on your hands Bill.

  53. The Scripture is the standard for truth, and when you reject it, I guess there’s no limit to the foolishness.

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