You Can’t Make This Stuff Up

I like to scroll through the blogs tagged with “evangelism” on occasion, and if there’s something terribly wrong I’ll comment. If there’s an inspiring story of courage and boldness in witnessing I’ll comment. The other day, I happened upon this blog, dripping with sarcasm towards an event and preacher I’d never heard of–Tony Nolan at Winter Jam.

I truly have no idea what went on Winter Jam, and I’ve never heard of Tony Nolan.  I would normally assume that it would be the usual unbiblical Christian M.O. Trick people into coming to some worldly event, and then pop them with the gospel–not usually a biblical gospel, but a squishy version thereof. However, the blogger was mad at Tony Nolan for mentioning hell and sin, so maybe it wasn’t all that bad.

I decided to pick one facet of the blogger’s mistake that I’ve discussed at length in the past. The mistake is saying that creating converts is a bad thing. I really have little patience for it, because I think it’s a very basic mistake, and comes from either:

  1. Saying there are people somewhere between saved and unsaved.
  2. Believing that the gospel isn’t adequate for salvation. We need to add our impressive discipleship techniques to make it really work.

Either way, I think we need to stand against those mistakes, and I left a comment asking for the blogger’s definition of convert. He said that a convert is “an individual who simply calls on Jesus and continues living life in their previous manner.” So, according to him all converts are false converts? I don’t know if he thinks a convert is going to heaven or hell, but I say you’ve either converted or you haven’t. You’re either born again, or dead in your sins. If someone converts, and continues living in sin, they are false converts. The problem is that you’re distorting the definition if you’re redefining all converts as false converts.

Later his girlfriend left a comment saying,

This blog was more important then what someones definition of “converts” and “disciples”. I am sure there are many definitions in the dictionary at your local library!!! Do you have a library card??? Oh wait what about the internet you can find it there too. http://www.dictionary.com is a great tool when in doubt.

This portion of her comment was leveled at me, and I decided to play along and said,

I agree that there are accepted definitions of disciple and convert available in every dictionary. Hopefully, the terribly unbiblical use of the terms by [the blogger] will lead him to borrow your dictionary or your Bible.

The latter phrase (borrow your dictionary or your Bible) was replaced by the blogger with “[edited due to negativity].” Furthermore, I was warned that I was in danger of being banned from the blog.

Neither the blogger, nor his girlfriend offered any sort of biblical defense for any of their viewpoints. I think at some point it becomes clear that they have no defense, and don’t know the Bible very well. I pointed this out to them, and the fact that it appears that Tony Nolan and any commenter who disagrees with them is likely to receive the “intense criticism” that they choose not to stand for themselves.

Finally, the blogger defends his criticism of Tony Nolan, saying it’s OK since he’s a public figure. I guess that pesky verse about “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” doesn’t apply if the other person is a public figure. Not only that, but the blogger took the opportunity to heap more criticism upon Tony Nolan for having the audacity to defend himself on the blog. The blatant hypocrisy on display amazes me.

Personally, I have no problem with calling people on their mistakes, and aspire to be teachable and humble when called on my mistakes. The blogger and his girlfriend pulled no punches with their sarcasm, and I think my sarcasm was mild in comparison. I don’t necessarily think I sinned in responding with sarcasm, but I’m open to opinions. I don’t even necessarily think the blogger and his girlfriend sinned with their sarcasm. The sin arises when they demand to be treated differently than they treat others.

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29 Responses to You Can’t Make This Stuff Up

  1. Adam Smith says:

    Hmmm, Convert – “an individual who simply calls on Jesus and continues living life in their previous manner.” That’s about as logical as saying repentance is to ask forgiveness and then continue on the same path. Doesn’t make much sense, does it? I went to Mr. Grant’s blog, and just the subtitle makes me cringe slightly (emerging thinker). I realize emerging is different from emergent, but I would say they are dangerously close; reminds me of people like Doug Padgitt, Brian McLaren, or Rob Bell.

    Maybe this is irrelevant, but what do we need to be emerging from? The gospel? The gospel does not change, and those who are trying to change it (see above), well…[edited by commenter for possibly negative comments] :)

    Tony Nolan preached at my church a couple years ago, and while I don’t agree with some of his methodology, he is certainly better than the aforementioned “leaders” or Joel Osteen.

    Out of curiosity, have you read “The Truth War” by John MacArthur? I just purchased it myself.

  2. Bill says:

    Adam,

    Long time, no see. I knew being emergent would lead to disagreements between Jason and I, but in my experience, emergents are up for a conversation. In fact, I thought conversation was their whole deal.

    I haven’t read “The Truth War.” Someday I’ll try to get to it.

    Bill

  3. Adam Smith says:

    That is true. I do believe that emergents like to facilitate “conversations” instead of preaching, with a “narrator” instead of a preacher.

  4. Bill, thanks for stopping by http://www.gracedependent.com. I have just been introduced to Way of the Master and am really excited, and challenged, to be sharing the gospel more frequently. Tonight my wife and I were able to do some evangelizing in a local mall and it was very exciting to know that we were being obedient to the commands of Christ! God bless you and your blog ministry, as well as your outreach.
    ~Pastor Mark

  5. “I happened upon this blog, dripping with sarcasm towards an event and preacher I’d never heard of–Tony Nolan at Winter Jam.” That is said here.

    “I’ve never heard of Winter Jam or Tony Nolan. I have a tendency to criticize such events; you obviously do as well. However, I think if there was something wrong with what happened there, you’re completely misdiagnosing the problem.” That is said at Jasons blog.

    The funny thing is, you missed the whole point of the post. It wasn’t about disciples and a converts. [edited due to negativity] Your so busy attempting to sound smart, ya [edited due to negativity] misunderstood the whole point! I am an atheist and I could see it plain as day.

    His point is Christians/Christianity is going about things the wrong way. From his perspective he saw Tony preaching fear, not love. Tough concept to grasp, but try and catch up. Maybe your sinning butt should waddle on over to Jasons blog and admit you didn’t understand and apologize for writing this crap. Since your a good Christian and it would be the good little Christian thing to do. @:-D

  6. Bill says:

    NGITS,

    I won’t allow cussing on my blog.

    An atheist wants to offer advice on evangelism. You and Jason don’t really know the Bible very well, and I’m not all that interested in what you think about proper evangelism. The Bible says that you’re an enemy with God, suppressing the truth in unrighteousness, and a fool for denying the obvious.

    I really hope that you will think about your sins, and if God cares about justice what He must do to you. The Bible makes it clear that you will spend eternity in hell.

    What would a fool do with a book of wisdom? I’m sure you’d be more than happy to tell me what you’d do with it.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  7. Bill – Awe you can dish it out but can not handle the truth. You didn’t address the problem, you missed the whole point and wrote this post bashing your fellow Christian. It had nothing to do with disciples and a converts. Admit you were wrong! Or mark another sin you need to speak to Jesus for a free pass for. Your lower IQ, with an inflated ego, allows you to try and pass yourself off as intelligent. We know better. Don’t we? As for evangelizing … lol I will leave that to those who think with their backside, and not their brain. FYI – There was no negativity in first comment. Truth hurts … huh? And! There is nothing wrong with calling you pompass and the second word was donkey.

  8. Bill says:

    NGITS,

    You’re right. I didn’t address your objection, because I don’t care to address it with you. The issues you have are quite different from a discussion on evangelism, and discussing that with you would be a waste of your time and mine.

    I’d be interested in finding out how old you are, because your style reminds me of conversations I had in junior high or maybe early high school at the latest.

    I care about you and hope that someday you will find forgiveness for your sins, and that we can spend eternity in heaven together.

    In the meantime, I have to continue to warn you that God is infinitely holy, and cannot allow sin into heaven. The God you mock continues to provide your oxygen for another day. There is no guarantee that He’ll do that again tomorrow, and His justice demands that someday you will give an account. Does this concern you?

    You accuse me of sinning, which raises an interesting question. It is impossible to know right from wrong with an atheist worldview. Are you simply attempting to hold me to the standard I profess, or do you actually believe I’ve done something wrong?

    Thanks,
    Bill

  9. Bill – I am calling a spade a spade. Yep you bashed your buddy in spirit, just to make you look smart.

    In your world view, you know that was wrong. In my crystal clear world view(it means not clouded by worship of imaginary deity), I also saw you did him an injustice.

    You went there, having never heard Tony. Did not know crap about Tony, and you wanted to defend Tony. You could not say about Jasons actual post. So you personally did the most Christian like thing and twisted some words into an argument. That is CHILDISH.

    As far as me acting like I’m in HS. That is funny. You popped in on an atheist blog, said something stupid. Then disappeared. I looked you up. I saw this rant. Double checked your BS, by reading Jasons Blog.

    So looky what I discovered. True Christian doesn’t listen, talks smack full of lies and then hides in his religion.

    “An atheist wants to offer advice on evangelism. You and Jason don’t really know the Bible very well, and I’m not all that interested in what you think about proper evangelism.”

    Oh see the Christian run. You don’t know your bible he says. lol Look Billy Boy. I know your bible well enough. You do not know, understand or comprehend it. That is why you are still a Christian. Here is a post to rankle your …

    http://www.noguyinthesky.com/2009/04/where-is-beef-jesus-is-missing.html

    Now that is writing. Lets see if you comprehend. heh.

  10. Mixter says:

    Gosh, this looked like so much fun I had to join in…

    It is impossible to know right from wrong with an atheist worldview. Geez, we atheists haven’t heard that one before. Guess what? Morality doesn’t come from your imaginary friend or your obedience to a book that is inconsistent at best. According to your “good book,” it’s okay to wage war, keep slaves, oppress women, murder people, and lots of other swell stuff. Lots of good black/white, right/wrong there, fella.

    …your style reminds me of conversations I had in junior high or maybe early high school at the latest. Not only are you deluded, you’re smarmy. Really, not a great combination… :-D

    Mixter

  11. soulangler says:

    Hey Bill, thanks for calling out the implication in emergent thinking that there is no hard and fast boundary between the saved and unsaved (because, they say, we humans can’t infallibly know who the elect are). God does know and Jesus has plainly said we must turn (i.e. repent of sins) and become like children to enter the kingdom of heaven Mt. 18.3 (implying that unless and until we do we are NOT in the kingdom of heaven, but of darkness), that many will say ‘Lord, Lord’ but will be cast into hell since they remained in their sin Mt.7.21 (thus there are false professors of faith in Christ).

    False teachers will not tell people plainly that unless they believe in the Son (John 3.16 etc.) , the incarnate deity (John 8.24, 58) and repent of their sin Mt.4.17 etc. etc. the wrath of God remains on them John 3.36 etc.

    http://diacrino.blogspot.com/

  12. So whats your angle on this, Soulangler? If Bill writes a post, because he didn’t take the time to read careful/comprehend another Christians post. Then writes a post blasting them about an event and person he has no knowledge of. Does he or does he not owe Jason an apology? It is not very Christian like to not admit he had his God glasses on when he read it.

    I came here only to see what some Christian jerk (Bill)would write, after he dropped a dumb comment on an atheist blog. So I read this, the blog he commented on. Plus the link provided by another Christian on the exact same event.

    http://michaelgianopulos.blogspot.com/2009/02/winter-jam-2009-observations-and.html

    If Bill wants to write about disciples and a converts. Then write about it. Be honest and dont exaggerate what your fellow Christian claims.

    He should admit he was wrong. Is he big enough? Will God give him strength to over come his ego? Tough stuff for a good Christian.

  13. Mixter says:

    Wait a minute, soulangler! …we humans can’t infallibly know who the elect are. God does know… The elect? Chosen to be saved? Where, then, does all this free will come in?

    Off the topic of Bill being dishonest, deluded and smarmy, but this inquiring mind wants to know! :)

    Mixter

  14. Bill says:

    NGITS,

    I will delete anymore comments with cussing. It’s definitely time to grow up.

    So you think it’s wrong for me to correct someone on their blog concerning something that they supposedly didn’t write about. Clearly, you hold yourself to a different standard.

    I think you maybe need to re-read the discussion you’re speaking about with Angry Philistine. I have to assume you just haven’t read it, because you’re just not making any sense. Furthermore, that isn’t the first conversation I’ve had with him. Your habit of jumping to conclusions is one of the reasons I pointed out your immaturity.

    What are you going to do about your sin?

    Mixter,

    You’ve heard the objection that atheists can’t account for right and wrong before. Great, that must mean you’ve answered the objection. I’d love to hear your answer. Surely you didn’t hear an objection you couldn’t answer, and continue on solely by faith.

    One thing I would suggest is that even if you completely disproved Christianity, that isn’t a valid defense of atheism. So, how do you determine right and wrong?

    Thanks,
    Bill

  15. Mixter says:

    Bill: Of what sin do you presume No Guy to be guilty? I certainly hope you haven’t gathered up stones…

    Regarding right and wrong, let me ask you this: Is it only impossible for atheists to know right from wrong, or does one need to be a Christian to have morals? Before you were “saved,” were you able to determine right from wrong? Do you believe that only Christians are able to account for right and wrong, or does one merely need to be a theist to have that skill? Are Jews or Muslims lacking in the right from wrong department? And, does one need to be a monotheist, or are Hindus able to ascertain what is right from what it wrong?

    Let me give you an example from my life — it happened just today. As he was getting up from his table in the break room, a guy at work dropped a $20 bill from his pocket. He didn’t notice that he dropped it. This guy, my friend Rob and I were the only people in the room, and we were all getting ready to leave. I could have hung back a minute, grabbed that twenty off the floor, and no one would have known. Instead, I told the guy that he dropped a twenty so he could retrieve it. I could certainly use an extra $20, but it wasn’t my $20; it was his. I did the right thing, not because some fictitious sky daddy told me so, but because I would expect another human being to treat me with the same consideration. It’s really that simple.

    You want another example? Dog poop. When I walk my dog, I pick up after her. Why? It’s not like anyone would know if I didn’t, so why do I care about doing the right thing even if no one would know? I know what’s right and I know what’s wrong. I know I wouldn’t want to have to pick up some other dog’s poo from my yard, so why should I expect someone else to have to pick up after my dog?

    To insist that one has to believe in the supernatural in order to have a sense of morality can be likened to what I pick up when my doggie does her business.

    Mixter

  16. Mixter – Nice. This is were I say, just like your bag, Bill is full of …(no curse words for Mr. Pretending to be Innocent Bill) <— Now that is funny. :)

    Bill – Are you on meds? Seriously, are you? Maybe you should be. I am sorry for your mental condition.

    "I think you maybe need to re-read the discussion you’re speaking about with Angry Philistine."

    Bill, this is were comprehension comes into play. So I will spell it out for you.

    Yes, you were at the AP. Yes you are allowed to say stupid things there. I said because you said something stupid. I came to this blog. I read this post. I read the link to Jasons Blog you provided. I read the comments. I also read another link Jason provided in the comments. Then I saw how, just like now. You did not comprehend Jasons Blog. I did not say, you did not comprehend AP's Blog. I said, you said something stupid on AP's blog. Wow is that boring or what? I sure hope you get it now. I bet all the other commenters are up to speed. For your sake, I hope you are.

    "I will delete anymore comments with cussing. It’s definitely time to grow up." OK Billy Boy. I got news for you. I am grown up. I have two grown children. One finished college, one will be next year. I am anything, but immature. I use words in a colorful, fun and creative way. I am mature.

    Your use of immature as a label for me, is funny. Really when you look at it, you have not addressed that you were incorrect about Jason's post(shows immaturity)and the use is an attack. Just like my colorful words. You using immature is easily equal to cursing. You are also incorrect about me. You seem to make a lot of mistakes. Habit? :)

    I will say it is immature to believe obvious BS(is this OK? or is it to nasty?) and not be skeptical, just for faith.

    The adult thing. I am sorry, I must repeat this for you. The ADULT thing is to be skeptical. Faith is the belief in nothing and/or unsupported rubbish(Yep this is your bible). You only have faith when your bible is written by a perfect, omniscient, omnipotent, kind and loving God.

    An adult would ask, how is it the bible could be written by an omniscient being? That is kind and loving?

    The adult would say, there are so many flaws, it is not possible for such a being to be a part of it. An adult would admit it is obviously written by homophobic, misogynistic desert dweebs. An adult would admit the God of the bible has way too many character flaws to be perfect, loving, kind or caring. Please do not make me explain how cruel he really is, if he were real. I was told by you. You are an expert on the bible. So you know I am right. I you can not figure out what I could be talking about, then you do not know YOUR BIBLE.

    The non-thinking child(Yep and immature) says "I have faith. I know its true. I can feel that it is true. I need. Oops. I want. Oops. It must be true."

    Which are you Bill? An adult would admit he was wrong to Jason. Which are you again?

    Sin? Sin Bill? What sin? There is no God for me to offend. Just a intellectually helpless Christian Named … Bill.

  17. lol You blocked me. Coward. Typical. You are intellectually inferior. Immature. lol

  18. Bill says:

    Mixter,

    Here’s an example of some sins that I’m going to go ahead and take the wild leap that at some point in NGITS’s life he’s committed. Lying, lust, having other gods before the Lord. Those are examples of breaking God’s law, and just like any guilty criminal, he must be punished.

    I never said you or anyone else wasn’t capable of making the right moral decision. I would say that when you make a proper moral decision, you’re borrowing from my world view.

    Here’s a more specific question: Why is murder wrong?

    NGITS,

    Your 7:00 pm comment is just another reason why I think you’re immature. You jump to conclusions about me, and start calling names. Doesn’t that strike you as immaturity? I don’t care how old you are, you’re acting like a child.

    WordPress blogs automatically send certain comments to the spam folder. Right now, there are 56 comments there about everything imaginable. I don’t look through there, because valid comments don’t usually end up there. I don’t know why your comment ended up there. If it happens again, feel free to tell me (in a grown-up manner) that you left a comment that hasn’t appeared.

    I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear with what I wrote about AP. I was referring to when you said, “You popped in on an atheist blog, said something stupid. Then disappeared.” I took what you said to mean that I left 1 comment, and never wrote again. Did I misunderstand? That isn’t the case, as I’ve left 2 comments on that post, and had a conversation there in the past. Nothing you’ve said about that conversation has made any sense to me.

    I may or may not leave another comment, depending on whether AP responds to my 2nd comment (I haven’t had a chance to check since yesterday morning). Furthermore, my comments on the post in question were simply a defense of free speech–not any Christian doctrine, so I’m not sure what you’re so excited about.

    It appears that Mixter and I can have a reasonable conversation. I look forward to continuing it. If nothing else, maybe Mixter can be an example to you about how to debate. I would recommend that you sit on the sidelines and maybe you’ll learn something.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  19. Bill- You could have posted it.

    It should be posted. There was nothing bad with what I wrote. You are avoiding the whole issue. I made that perfectly clear. This is all about you blasting Jason. But you know that.

    You are the one who needs to grow up.

    Post my comment.

  20. Mixter says:

    No, Bill. What you said was It is impossible to know right from wrong with an atheist worldview. I know right from wrong. I am not “borrowing” from your worldview. I don’t need your worldview. Mine works, and it’s delusion-free.

    Mixter

  21. Mixter says:

    Oh yeah, why is murder wrong? Hmm, that’s something you might want to check with your god. He doesn’t seem to have a problem with murder, being guilty of it on numerous occasions:

    http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/01/how-many-has-god-killed-complete-list.html

    The above link lists the mass murders as well as the individual smitings committed by your god, reported in his divinely-inspired word. I know murder is wrong, but I wouldn’t want you to go against your sky daddy without at least checking with him first.

    Mixter

  22. Bill says:

    Mixter,

    How do you know murder is wrong? Insisting that you know it’s wrong isn’t the same thing as explaining how you know it’s wrong. I would like to examine your thinking on this. Here’s your opportunity to show me where I’m wrong.

    I have an objection I like to use against Muslims. It has nothing to do with Christianity. It is simply an examination of the beliefs of Islam. I’ve never heard a reasonable response to my objection, all they do is attack Christianity. I assume that since they never bother to answer, they have no response. Even if they were to disprove Christianity, it wouldn’t mean that they answered my objection to Islam.

    Similarly, you can answer my question, or you can attack Christianity. Even if you disprove Christianity, it doesn’t mean you’ve answered my objection to atheism. Are you interested in answering my question or not?

    How do you know murder is wrong?

    NGITS,

    I don’t understand your last comment. All your comments are posted, right?

    Thanks,
    Bill

  23. Challenge to Atheists says:

    Hopefully Mixter will come back to answer Bill’s Question:

    Why is murder wrong?

    No atheist has ever answered the question. Maybe some other atheist would like to answer.

  24. Mixter says:

    Mixter was on a trip to Bizarro World, aka the Creation “Museum,” and just got home a little while ago. You’ll have to come to my blog on a regular basis to hear all about that crazy nonsense. You can be as smarmy and delusional as you like at my blog, but I won’t promise that I’ll either play nicely or not swear on my home turf… ;)

    Murder is wrong for the same reason that it would have been wrong for me to take the $20 that wasn’t mine. We each have ONE life. None before and none after, just this one life. To take someone else’s life is wrong. His or her life doesn’t belong to me; it belongs to him or her. It is not mine to take. Why is this so difficult to understand?

    Explain how YOU know murder is wrong. And, please don’t say it’s because God said so. It obviously is not wrong to your god. He committed all sorts of murder in the Bible, and also commanded his followers to murder, as the link I previously posted clearly indicates. So, how do YOU know murder is wrong?

    Mixter

  25. Bill says:

    Mixter,

    How do you know taking something (including a life) from someone is wrong?

    The reason I know murder is wrong is because God says so.

    God has never murdered anyone. Murder is wrongful killing. However, He has killed or will kill every human who has ever lived, including you. If you want to look at a specific example from the Bible, I can do that. However, we can use you as the example.

    You will be killed (not murdered) by God because you have sinned. The wages of sin is death. You’ve denied His existence, and He has promised that you will die because of that sin and all the others. My only question would be why He hasn’t killed you yet.

    He’s given you many good things, and all He’s received in return is mocking. You are commanded by the Creator of the universe to repent and trust Jesus, but you live in willful disobedience of that. You are a living, breathing testimony to His mercy, but at some point His mercy will run out.

    If He had killed you yesterday, He would have been perfectly just in doing so, and He’s been perfectly just in killing everyone else, including any example you wish to cite. Just because you don’t comprehend something doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense.

    Furthermore, until you can show that your worldview provides a basis for you to determine right and wrong, you have no basis for judging God.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  26. Mixter says:

    Bill:

    How do you know taking something (including a life) from someone is wrong? I explained that in a previous post. Your comprehension is nearly as poor as your reasoning.

    So, the multitude of infants and children your god destroyed in “the flood” were all guilty sinners, simply because of Adam and Eve. How, exactly, is this okay with you? The god you worship, if he wasn’t made up (which he is) would be one [removed]

    My only question would be why He hasn’t killed you yet. You are a sick, pathetic excuse for a human being. People like you need a big, non-existing sky daddy.

    Just because you don’t comprehend something doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense. Um, actually that is the meaning of comprehension. Are you actually that stupid? Yeah, I think you probably are.

    Furthermore, until you can show that your worldview provides a basis for you to determine right and wrong, you have no basis for judging God. I don’t “judge” something that doesn’t exist.

    You’re an angry, pathetic individual who needs to believe in, nay, live within a fairy tale world. I’d feel sorry for you if you weren’t so unlikable. Maybe some day you will shed your delusional thinking, but I doubt it. Don’t bother responding; I won’t be back.

    Mixter

  27. Bill says:

    Mixter,

    The problem with atheism isn’t that you can’t make a decision that happens to be moral based on my worldview, it’s that there is no basis for determining whether that decision is moral or amoral based on your worldview.

    Why is stealing and murder wrong? If there is no greater moral authority, you may choose not to murder and steal (which is correct), but there is no good reason not to murder and steal. There may be societal reasons or personal reasons, but who’s to say those are valid? If someone else chooses to murder and steal, you can’t necessarily say they’re wrong, because it’s only your reasoning against his. Why isn’t his reasoning just as valid as yours?

    I would have loved to hear some more of your reasoning, but you failed to provide any. You will continue on in your atheism, and each time you judge my God as doing something right or wrong, you will reveal your hypocrisy–using the standard of a God you don’t believe exists to make decisions. It’s actually quite ironic.

    I think you and I may be starting to get somewhere. I hope you will check back. I’m sorry if any of my comments came across as angry. I’m really not. Everything I say is because I care about you, and I don’t want you to go to hell. If I was angry at you, I would simply not have responded to you, not made an attempt to convince you of your standing before God, and simply let you go to hell unimpeded. Please consider the things we’ve discussed.

    Thanks for the conversation.
    Bill

  28. Curious says:

    Now forgive me for my slightly out of context posting, i cribbed it from where i first posted it, it was in relation to a specific comment, but i think it addresses this point here too…

    morality, as the major religions (esp. the Abrahamic religions) define it is, a codified set of immutable rules. That numerous ’sets’ or rules exist mean that there are numerous choices of rules and therefore your morality is subjective.

    ‘Right’ and ‘Wrong’ are very different things to ‘morality’. The reason I brought up the question of whether christians ‘invented’ morality was to highlight that there have been inherent (maybe ‘a priori’) ‘rules’ that have existed in human society since long before the written tradition.

    There are things that are fundamentally wrong, as to whether they are ‘a priori’ inherently wrong (i.e. that it is an inherited behaviour/evolutionary survival tactic), or achieved through ancient historical concord (like a kind of antique common law) neither of those has need for a supernal artisan.

    Two rules (that have come to be ‘interpretd’ by us, not invented by us, think gravity rather than legislation) in my proudly ‘amoral’ world view a) do what you like, b) don’t make anyone do something they don’t like (this is of course the ’start from scratch’ idealised view) Note these contain no prescriptive content, they are just fndamental princples, which i) don’t allow room for manipulation, ii) allow constant contemporaneous development, alongside epoch specific social mores and iii) require no God.

    ‘Do unto others’ pre-dates Christianity, it pre-dates the Old Testament, it in fact pre-dates God. So did God reveal himself via the pre-monothesitic pantheons? (all sorts of questions arise there!) or did he hijack the notion?

    Or is the concept of God(s) and the ‘baggage of morality’ constructed around him/her something entirely different and separate to the fundamentals of ‘right’ and ‘wrong’

  29. Bill says:

    Hi Curious,

    So, you have your two rules, that have magically appeared to you. On what basis do you disagree when someone else has completely different, if not antithetical rules magically appear to them? Are your two rules absolute and universal? If they are, then they require a source for absolutes. The only source for such absolutes is the one true God.

    Thanks,
    Bill

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