The Invisible and Impossible 1914 Return

As a part of their doctrine, Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Jesus returned—invisibly—in 1914. They base this on a prophetic dream of Nebuchadnezzar, which Daniel interpreted in Daniel 4. Nebuchadnezzar dreamed that a huge tree was chopped down, and was passed over for “seven times” (verse 16).

wdtbrt.jpgThe JW who I talked with the other day on my porch left me the booklet What Does the Bible Really Teach? If a JW offers you a copy, take it. If it didn’t have a false gospel in it, it would be funny to read; I’ve seen atheists twist Scripture much more convincingly than these guys. This book explained how the Watch Tower interprets this prophecy to arrive at the date of October 1914.

The tree of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, they say, represents human government. They skip over to Revelation 12, and say that seven times means that this government lasts 2,520 days or years (whichever suits your false doctrine better) before Jesus returns. If you take the time of Jerusalem’s destruction, when “God’s rulers” stopped reigning (which they say is 607 B.C.), and add 2,520 years, you arrive at 1914. It’s clear that Jesus returned in 1914. Only a wicked heathen who will be cut down at Armageddon could disagree.

However, upon a closer look, this “theology” has multiple issues. Later in Daniel 4, the prophet Daniel interprets the dream, and explains what the tree is. Verse 22 says the tree is Nebuchadnezzar—not wicked human government in general. This prophecy was explained and fulfilled in Nebuchadnezzar’s life in the very same chapter. The seven times were seven years that passed during Nebuchadnezzar’s life (verses 32–34).

Second, the date given for Jerusalem’s destruction is generally agreed to be 586 or 587 B.C., not 607 B.C. as the Watch Tower states. The JWs are the only ones who use that date. I don’t think that they can claim that historians changed the dates in a big conspiracy against them. (I really don’t think the Watch Tower is on many scholars’ radar.). This is just one more issue that illustrates how confused the Watch Tower is.

Finally, the Bible says Jesus won’t return invisibly. The JW theory is a fulfillment of what Jesus prophesied in Matthew 24:23–27: “At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.”

Revelation 1:7 says, “Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.”

Matthew 26:64 says, “Yes, it is as you say,” Jesus replied. “But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

Either the Bible is right, or the Watch Tower is. I choose to believe the Bible—and I pray that many Jehovah’s Witnesses do, too.

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20 Responses to The Invisible and Impossible 1914 Return

  1. Jim says:

    Hi Bill,

    Regarding Watchtower predictions/ false prophecies you may want to read some interesting things TJ and I discussed at http://diacrino.blogspot.com/2008/03/until-you-admit-disease.html

    and you can assess for yourself how convincing the arguments are on his (Watchtower) side or mine. His main point of contention was that the Watchtower is not a false prophet as I claim because they are merely interpreting scripture not giving new revelation. I’d not heard this line before.

    Basics are these: 1. no one knows the hour of Jesus’ return (so why oh why do people claim to know – even if only ‘interpreting’ scripture)?
    2. As you note, his return will be visible (Christians out there – if JWs give you the ‘parousia’ bamboozle move it’s baloney. A word derives meaning from its context as the scriptures in this post make clear). There is NO GOOD REASON why parousia cannot be visible any more than the English word ‘coming’ can’t)

    And how do they get an organisation out of ‘faithful and discreet slave’? So sad – there but for grace go you and I without spiritual eyesight granted from above.

  2. billphillips says:

    Jim,

    I’ve never heard anything about ‘parousia’. Maybe you can give me a quick explanation or a website to look at.

    Thanks for your comment.

    Bill

  3. Pilgrim says:

    I have this booklet and many other JW materials (mostly their older stuff that they wished I didn’t possess).

    When I first got this little booklet from them I thought the title was interesting: “What Does The Bible Really Teach?”

    It kind of reminded me of a little question I heard asked once before: “Hath God really said?”

    Same old lie. Different packaging.

    – The Pilgrim

  4. Jim says:

    Yeah Bill,

    Sorry, I wasn’t meaning to be obscure – παρουσία/parousia is the Greek word usually translated ‘coming’ – it is in Mt.24:3, 27, 37 and other places (24 in total in NT according to e-sword search). It can refer to the Lord’s visible and physical return as well as to his first coming/advent. Yet it can be as mundane as when Stephanus etc. came (1 Cor. 16:17) etc. And I expect they were seen! (The onus is on the Watchtower to give one example where παρουσία does not mean something visible)

    Without doing a complete word study, I think the 3 references in Matthew alone make it impossible to go along with the ‘invisible return’ in 1914 (or any other date) fiction.

    The very point of Mt.24:27 is precisely to argue AGAINST a secret or limited return of Christ (since the previous verse – CONTEXT! – v26 warns against those who say he is in the secret chambers etc.) and v.39 makes the point that the return will issue in a sudden and unexpected judgement as befell those in the days of Noah – in their days a universal judgment of water, when Jesus returns/appears ( παρουσία parousia) there will be a universal and unexpected judgement by fire (as I think Peter says).

    I do recommend e-sword and using the search using the Strongs concordance function. It enables a search of the Greek words (which is even better than the English) and allows us to see where and when the same Greek word has been translated with two or more English words.

    Enough already

    Blessings, Jim

  5. 3rd angel says:

    I ran across your website looking for info on reaching JW’s. I found many of your comments thought provoking. I appreciate your compassion for humanity and your efforts to save others from hell fire. Here is a great link that you might like to check out http://www.helltruth.com/ . It looks at the biblical teaching on hell.

    It is refreshing to see someone supporting a biblical return of Jesus, not a secret rapture theory. (or do you believe in the secret rapure?, most Christians today do) Check out this online tract about Christ’s second coming: http://www.amazingfacts.org/FreeStuff/OnlineLibrary/tabid/106/ctl/ViewMedia/mid/447/IID/9/LNG/en/7/Anything-But-Secret/SC/R/Default.aspx

    May I ask you the same question you ask those who you witness to: Are you keeping all 10 of the Commandments? Check out this website: http://www.sabbathtruth.com/

    God promised to send the Holy Spirit to guide His children to all truth. May you continue to seek the HS as you continue your quest for truth.

    Awaiting His Soon Visible Return,
    3rd Angel

  6. billphillips says:

    3rd Angel,

    For someone who is trying to reach JWs, you seem to share many of their heresies. If you believe Jesus is Michael the archangel, you deny His deity, and you will die in your sins (John 8:24).

    I have kept none of the Ten Commandments, and I deserve an eternity of conscious torment as my punishment (Revelation 14:11). I have sinned against an infinitely holy God, and either my infinite penalty must be paid (which Michael the archangel is incapable of paying) by Jesus, or I will pay it myself in hell. I have the true Jesus, and I hope and pray that you do, too.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  7. Pilgrim says:

    Bill:

    I too was wondering the same thing about 3rd Angel. He/she was commenting under the guise of agreement then slipped in the whole “Jesus is Michael” heresy as found on the link he/she provided:

    “Now you may know who Michael is, but the devil knows too, and it won’t save him. The big question is: Do you know Him as Jesus your personal Lord and savior”

    There never seems to be a shortage of heretical doctrines and those willing to promote them.

    – The Pilgrim

    P.S. Did you get my e-mail regarding the new blog?

  8. 3rd Angel says:

    Hi Bill and Pilgrim,
    I in no way believe that Jesus is a created being. The Bible teaches that He is 100% God and 100% man. That is part of the mystery of Godliness that we will have all eternity to study. If you will not open your mind to study what the BIBLE teaches about the Angel of the Lord and Michael the Archangel you will have to answer for that in the judgment.

    I too have broken all 10 commandments, but you make it sound like it impossible to keep God’s Law. In our own strength yes, but not in the power of the resurrected Savior! See Jude 24, 2 Tim 4:18. In Matthew 1:21 we are told that His name will be Jesus because He will save His people FROM their sins not IN them. Paul asks in Romans 6:15 if we should continue to sin because we are under grace. He answers this with God forbid! If you deny the power of God to keep you from sinning then you deny God Himself. The Bible clearly teaches that humanity CAN obey God’s Moral Law, but only through a life completely submitted to Jesus.

    John 3:16 tells us that whoever BELIEVES IN JESUS will not perish but have everlasting life. What does perish mean? If the wicked burn for eternity in hell, then they must have eternal life, but the infallable Word of God says that only those who believe in Jesus have eternal life. If you refuse to look at what the BIBLE teaches about hell you may just find yourself perishing there.

    The JWs are way off when it comes to the true nature of Christ, the second coming of Christ and heaven and the new earth, but I have to give it to them they understand that the Bible correctly teaches that Michael is Jesus (though they take this and say that it means He is a created being which is not what the Bible teaches)and they have a correct understanding of hell. Satan’s MO is to mix truth with error, that’s how he gets so many to follow him.

    I don’t mind being called a heretic, the Protestant reformers were and so was Jesus!

    Blessing!
    3rd Angel

  9. billphillips says:

    Pilgrim,

    I resent the e-mail I sent on Saturday morning. Not sure why it wouldn’t have gone through.

    3rd angel,

    I’m sorry if I jumped to conclusions about what you believe. I’ll have to read that link closer and try to figure out what you’re getting at concerning Michael the archangel. Do you believe in the trinity?

    It is impossible for us to not sin (1 John 1:9). However, God sanctifies us as we mature, so we should sin less and less. I am unrepentant for working on Saturday, as per Colossians 2:16 and Romans 14:5. However, I have found my permanent Sabbath rest in Jesus.

    If there is no hell, Hitler receives the same punishment as the little old lady who never harmed anyone (physically). That isn’t justice, and I know the Creator of the universe that I worship is infinitely just. In John 3:16, eternal life refers to life in heaven, or being born again to pass from being dead in our sins to life in Jesus. To do away with the doctrine of hell, you not only have to do away with God’s justice, but you have to seriously twist Scripture.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  10. 3rd Angel says:

    I never said that there is no hell, just that it does not burn forever. Is Sodom & Gomorrah still burning (Jude 7)? Or how about the gates of Jerusalem (Jeremiah 17:27)?

    I absolutely believe in the Holy Trinity. Funny you use 1 John1:9 to support your statement that we cannot live without sin when that verse tells us that we can be cleansed from all unrighteousness. Who are those mentioned in Revelation 14:5, 12?

    Leviticus 23 describes the sabbaths of the Lord. God commanded His children to keep the feasts along with the Sabbath (see verses 37, 38) The ceremonial sabbaths fell on different days of the week each year (just like our birthdays), but the seventh day Sabbath is always on the 7th day. It was instituted at creation before sin (see Genesis 2:1-3)and we are commanded to remember that day (Exodus 20:8-11) as a memorial of creation and in honor of the Creator (who is Jesus according to John 1:3)

    Read Revelation 14:7 and compare that to Exodus 20:11. See any similarities? The everlasting gospel (Rev. 14:6) includes a call to return to the true worship of the Creator. Ever consider the story of Cain and Abel. Why did Cain kill Abel? Cain wanted to worship God in his own way (no shedding of blood) and not in the way that God had commanded (with a sacrifice, the shedding of blood). Abel was more righteous (obedient) and it drove Cain to murder. Compare to Revelation 13:11-15.

    The most dire mesage for the inhabitants of this world is to avoid the mark of the beast, the 3rd angel’s message in Revelation 14:9-11 (which is followed by the description of those who do not receive the mark). It all revolves around worship. Who ya gonna worship? God or man?

    Consider the story of the 3 Hebrews in Babylon in Daniel 3. An image is set up, worship of the image is commanded at the threat of death (sounds like Revelation 13 doesn’t it? ). Yet God’s faithful will not bow. There are 2 regarding Babylon in Revelation (Rev. 14:8 and 18:2, 4). Notice in Revelation 18 God is calling HIS people out of Babylon. Many of God’s people are in Babylon right now but God is calling them out and the loud cry will only get louder as His people are persecuted for their faithfulness.

    God does not change (Malachi 3:6, James 1:17). It is the little horn that attempts to change laws and times (Daniel 7:25). It behooves God’s people to rightly understand who or what is the little horn, but I have gone on long enough.

    Blessings,
    3rd Angel

  11. Bill says:

    3rd Angel,

    When Hitler or the sweet little old lady sin, they sin against an infinitely holy God. Therefore, their punishment is infinite. If the punishment they receive in actuality isn’t infinite, God isn’t just.

    Is Sodom & Gomorrah still burning? 100% of the inhabatants (those remaining after Lot left) are still burning, and will burn for eternity.

    The punishment mentioned in Jeremiah 17:27 was fulfilled when the Chaldeans burned down Jerusalem.

    I should have said 1 John 1:8 rather than 1 John 1:9. Sorry. I have no doubt that we can be cleansed from all unrighteousness, however we don’t just commit sins. We are sinful. Our flesh is dead and rotting, and we will continue to sin until our dying day. However, all of the sins I will ever commit are already forgiven. Those mentioned in Revelation 14:5, 12 are all the born again Christians.

    Jesus did away with the entire law (Colossians 2:14), but reinstated all of the Ten Commandments except #4. Do you obey all of the ceremonial and civil laws? What do you think Colossians 2:14 means?

    What denomination would you call yourself?

    Thanks,
    Bill

  12. 3rd Angel says:

    The Bible teaches that the wages of sin is death and all deserve death because all have sinned. Now help me understand death. If I don’t choose Jesus, I will receive the wages of my sin which is death. What is this death? It can’t be our physical death because all born again Christians die and if that is the death that Jesus saved us from why is there still death? What death did Jesus experience that saves us? He had to pay the penalty for our sin, but if it was with His physical death on the cross then Christians should not be dying. The Bible teaches of the second death in Revelation 2:11; 20:6, 14; 21:8. It is called death, not eternal life in torment. The first lie told by Satan is found in Genesis 3:4. Satan told Eve she would not die if she ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The lie continues to be believed.

    David says the wicked will be consumed (Psalm 38:20). Jesus says we are to fear God who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Matt.20:18). Malachi 4:1, 3 tells us that the wicked are burned up leaving no root or branch and we will be walking on their ashes. Again I take you to the Bible where we are given examples of eternal fire and unquenchable fire in Jude 7 and Jeremiah 17:27. Neither of these places is still burning, they burned until all the consumable materials were burned up.

    The destruction of Satan is described in Ezekiel 28:16-19 as Satan being brought to ashes and “never shalt thou be anymore”. Our God is a consuming fire (Deut. 4:24, 9:3; Hebrews 12:29). The Webster’s 1828 dictionary defines consume as destroy. Not only is God infinitely just He is infinitely merciful. God is love. He promises us that sin and sinners shall be no more (Hebrews 9:28; Nahum 1:9; Isaiah 11:9, 65:25). Would it really be heaven if we had to hear the screams and cries of the unjust throughout eternity? I serve a powerful God who can and will destroy sin and sinners with the second death.

    Regarding our sinful nature. That is what it is, our nature. The fact that our nature is sinful does not mean that we are condemned to always sin. Think about the baby born to the drug addicted mother. It is born with a nature addicted to drugs but is that because it chose to take drugs? God has never removed our free choice. We had it at creation before sin and we still have it. We can choose not to sin and by the power of Jesus through the Holy Spirit we can be kept from sinning. We have two examples where Jesus told a sinner to sin no more (John 5:14, 8:11). Would Jesus ask us to do something that it was impossible for us to do? Of course not, He will always empower us to do His will. His will for us according to these verses is to sin no more. Sin is the transgression of the law. If you love me, keep my commandments. If we can’t stop sinning then those mentioned in Revelation 14:5, 12 can’t be born again Christians because they are described as having no guile and keeping the commandments.

    Only confessed sins are forgiven. Whatever sins you may choose to commit in the future will not be forgiven if you cherish them in your heart and don’t seek repentance and forgiveness. The Bible does not teach “once saved always saved”.

    Whatever I think Colossians 2:14 means really does not matter. What matters is what the BIBLE teaches. The Bible is its own interpreter. 2 Chronicles 33:8 tells us the ordinances were by the hand of Moses. We are told in Exodus 31:18 that the 10 commandments were written by the finger of God. In Deut. 31:24-26 we are told what Moses did with the book of the law that he wrote. He placed it outside the ark; the 10 commandments are in the ark(by the way, in Revelation 11:19 John sees heaven open and the ark of the testimony, this is a prophecy of a time when God’s people would see and begin to understand ALL of God’s commandments). It says in verse 26 that this law written by the hand of Moses was a witness against the people. Christ nailed the ceremonial law to the cross; all the types and feasts that pointed the Lamb which taketh away the sin of the world. A study of the use of the word “ordinances” using a concordance will only make this clearer.

    If Christ did away with the 4th commandment, when did He do it? The apostolic church observed the Sabbath along with Gentiles (Acts 13:4, 42, 44; 16:13; 17:2; 18:4). In fact, we have on record in the book of Acts, over eighty 7th day Sabbaths being kept. How is this? Acts 18:11 says that Paul stayed in Corinth a year and a half. This follows Luke’s statement in verse 4 that Paul reasoned every Sabbath in the synagogue. That would be at least 78 Sabbaths. Exodus 20:10 calls the 7th day Sabbath the Sabbath of the LORD (Jehovah), not the Sabbath of the Jews. Jesus says that He is Lord of the Sabbath (Mark 2:28; Luke 6:5). Therefore the Lord’s Day is the 7th day Sabbath. Isaiah 58 is a chapter about worshiping God in truth. It begins with a cry to show God’s people their transgression and ends with a blessing on those who keep the Sabbath holy.

    Again I say our holy, just, merciful, loving God does not change. He is calling His people back to worshiping Him in spirit and truth. I am of the remnant, those that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus; those who are denominated to give the 3rd angel’s message of Revelation 14. You can be one of these too. It’s not an exclusive club.

    Blessings,
    3rd Angel

  13. Bill says:

    3rd Angel,

    Thanks for your thorough response.

    The wages of sin is the second death. I agree. The second death is explicitly defined in Revelation 21:8 as having a place in the lake of burning sulfur. This is not eternal life. It is eternal death. You have to do very fancy footwork to get around many verses that talk about eternal hell, and the Bible is just too clear on the topic for me to buy into there being no hell. I take no pleasure in it. I wish it weren’t true. The concept of infinite justice isn’t pleasant.

    I have no guile. There is no lie in my mouth. I have been washed perfectly clean in the blood of the Lamb.

    I keep the Sabbath perfectly when I rest from keeping the law to earn my salvation (Hebrews 4, particularly verses 10-11). When was the Sabbath commandment removed? It was removed in Romans 14:5-6 and Colossians 2:16.

    If you’re relying on keeping the Sabbath to get to heaven, you must keep the entire law perfectly your entire life (Galatians 3:10). It’s between you and God whether you’re being legalistic with it or not. When you say, “I am of the remnant, those that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus…” it makes me worry. Those that have faith in Jesus will keep the commandments–not to earn His favor, but because they love Him. Those that are relying on keeping the commandments along with Jesus make Jesus of no value at all (Galatians 5).

    What denomination would you say you belong to?

    Thanks,
    Bill

  14. 3rd Angel says:

    Bill,
    Thanks for taking the time to engage in dialog with me. It has certainly strengthened my faith. I certainly don’t believe in chances or coincidences. The Bible says that all things work for the good of those who love Him and who are called according to His purpose (Romans 8:28). I believe the fact that I ran across your blog was God ordained.

    Perhaps some of the confusion is not understanding what the Bible is saying when the word “hell” is used. I believe in the burning lake of fire, but it is not burning now and it will eventually stop burning when all the unrepentant are burned up. How can you explain away this fact in these verses in the Bible: Job 8:22, 21:30; Psalm 1:6, 21:9, 37:9,10,20, 37:38, 92:7, 104:35, 145:20, Prov. 1:24-27, 2:22, 5:11, 11:3, Isaiah 1:28, 13:9, 47:14, 66:16, 24; Jer. 25:33; Ezekiel 18:20, 21:25; Joel 1:15; Mal 4:1,3; Matt. 26:52, Luke 13:3,5; 1 Corinth. 15:25; 1 Thess. 5:3; 2 Thess. 1:7-9, 2:8-10; 2 Peter2:6, 12, 13; 2 Peter 3:10. In these verses are words like “destroy”, “perish”, “will not be”, destroyed forever”, “consumed”, “destruction”, “rooted out”, and “burned up”.

    “Hell “is used 54 times in the Bible and is translated from 4 different words; 31 times from the Hebrew word “sheol” which means grave (31 times the same word is translated “grave”), 10 times from the Greek word “Hades” which means grave (Hades is translated as grave in 1 Corinthians 15:55), 12 times from the Greek word “Gehenna”, and 1 time from the Greek word “tartarus”. The majority of the time the word that is translated as “hell” means the grave.

    The other words that cause confusion and should cause us to study our Bibles are the words “forever” and “everlasting”. Matthew 25:41 speaks of “everlasting fire” for the wicked. Does it go out? Yes, according to the Bible, it does. Again I repeat myself, we must let the Bible explain itself. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with everlasting, or eternal, fire (Jude 7), and that fire turned them “into ashes” as a warning to “those that after should live ungodly,” 2 Peter 2:6. These cities are not burning today. The fire went out after everything was burned out. Likewise, everlasting fire will go out after it has turned the wicked to ashes (Malachi 4:3). The effects of the fire are everlasting, but not the burning itself. Doesn’t Matthew 25:46 say the wicked will receive “everlasting punishment”? Notice the word is punishment, not punishing. Punishing would be continuous, while punishment is one act. The punishment of the wicked is death, and this death is everlasting.

    The term “for ever,” as used in the Bible, means simply a period of time, limited or unlimited. It is used 56 times in the Bible in connection with things that have already ended. In Jonah 2:6,17 “for ever” means “three days and nights.” In Deuteronomy 23:3, this means “10 generations.” In the case of man, this means “as long as he lives” or “until death.” (See 1 Samuel 1:22, 28; Exodus 21:6; Psalm 48:14.) So the wicked will burn in the fire as long as they live, or until death. This fiery punishment for sin will vary according to the degree of sins for each individual, but after the punishment, the fire will go out.

    As I mentioned in my last post, it was the devil who was first to suggest that sinners would not die (Genesis 3: 4). A hell where sinners never perish would prove the devil right and would make God, who told Eve she would “surely die” as a result of transgression (Genesis 2:17), a liar. Titus 1:2 tells us that God cannot lie and John 8:44 tells us that the devil is liar. Who ya gonna beleive?

    The teaching of eternal torment has done more to drive people to atheism and insanity than any other invention of the devil. It is slander upon the loving character of a tender, gracious heavenly Father and has done untold harm to the Christian cause.
    Praise God that you can claim to be free from sin through the blood of Jesus. Jesus is waiting for His people to reflect His character, then He will return to take us to heaven (Eph. 5:27). The only Sabbath we are commanded to keep is the 7th day Sabbath, which was sanctified (set apart as holy) at creation, before sin. The “rest” of Hebrew 4:9 is the keeping of Sabbath. God has never changed His law.

    I too rest in Jesus, knowing that I do not have to work for my salvation, Jesus has opened up the way for me, He is the door. I appreciate that you did not call me a legalist for keeping the LORD’s Sabbath holy. I do not keep it to gain salvation; I keep it because I love my Jesus for paying the penalty for my sin. Why is it though that Sabbath keepers are often called legalists for keeping the Sabbath but other Christians are not called legalists for not stealing, or not lying or not committing murder?

    7th day Sabbath keeping may not seem like a big issue to you now, but a day is soon coming when the keeping of the 7th day Sabbath will bring about a decree calling for the death (parallel of the decree in Esther) of those who keep this day. Sound farfetched? It’s in Bible prophecy. The second beast of Revelation 13 will make an image to the first beast and will command worship of this image upon penalty of death. A Holy Spirit guided study of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation will reveal who the first beast is (also identified as the “little horn” in Daniel) and who the second beast is. With a humble and contrite heart, putting away the doctrines of man, one can understand what the image of the beast is and what his mark is.

    No need to worry when I say that I am of the remnant, those that keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus; I am quoting from Revelation 14:12. It is a promise from the word of God. I belong to a denomination of 15+ million believers worldwide, with a missionary presence in more countries than any other denomination (thus fulfilling the prophecy in Revelation 14:6). It is a denomination that I have found is the most true to Biblical teachings and the only one with the correct understanding of end time Bible prophecy. Denomination names don’t matter, what matters is if what I believe is Biblically sound.

    Blessings,
    3rd Angel

  15. Bill says:

    3rd Angel,

    I don’t understand how you can take a phrase such as eternal destruction to mean not eternal destruction. We can destroy a house, and it might take some time, but it won’t take eternity. Once something is truly destroyed, there is no possibility of undestruction. You might replace it with something similar, but it can never be undestroyed. So how you describe hell is certainly destruction, but not eternal destruction.

    I would use most, if not all of the verses you cited to support my position, and there are many other interesting verses, like Revelation 14:11. Matt. 25:46 uses the same word for eternal in describing eternal life and eternal punishment. I assume you take eternal life to mean that it lasts for eternity. If someone’s punishment lasts for 5000 years, that’s not really eternal punishment.

    Our sins are primarily against God. He is infinitely holy, so our penalty is infinite. Jesus, whose blood is of infinite value, is the only one that could pay our penalty. If His blood doesn’t pay for someone’s sins, they still have an infinite amout to pay for their sins. God cannot let someone off with only paying part of their penalty. He is infinitely merciful in that He offered to pay our penalty, but that doesn’t make His justice any more compromising.

    Romans 14:5-6 says, “One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.”

    If the Lord wanted us to keep the Sabbath, He would not let us determine which day to esteem. If you are convinced that Saturday is the day you want to keep holy, I wholeheartedly encourage you to do that. I will not judge you on your decision, and I would expect the same from you (Colossians 2:16). I really don’t know how much clearer the Bible can get on the topic. You can go through a complex search of prophecies, and criss-cross the entire Bible in your search to prove your point, but Romans 14 leaves it up to each individual to choose the days he wants to keep.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  16. Bill says:

    3rd Angel,

    Christians are supposed to judge each other for our own good (1 Corinthians 5), and exercise church discipline on those who are living in sin (Matt. 18). However, we are not supposed to judge each other for which day we keep as the Sabbath (Colossians 2:16).

    1 Corinthians 5:11-12 says, “But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
    12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?”

    If not keeping the Sabbath is a sin, why aren’t we supposed to discipline those who aren’t keeping it?

    Thanks,
    Bill

  17. 3rd Angel says:

    Hi Bill,

    Why would the church discipline for Sabbath breaking when they don’t teach Sabbath keeping?

    Evidently you did not do the study on what the Bible says the ordinances are. You did not do the study of the verses provided as cross references for Colossians 2:16. Do you study using a concordance? The sabbaths mentioned in the verses you cite are the ceremonial days NOT the 7th day Sabbath. We are no longer under a theocracy. Ever since God’s people cried for a king so they could be like the nations around them (1 Sam. 8:4), God’s people have been under the authority of earthly kings and rulers. We will be judged by God’s perfect law of liberty (James 2:12, the context shows he is speaking of the 10 commandments). No need to worry about the punishment for those who knowingly break the 7th day Sabbath, they will be destroyed with the rest of the unrepentant. And their destruction will be eternal. Destruction is a noun. The act of destruction, the destructing (a verb) will last only as long as there is life present. The result of the destructing of the wicked will be eternal. There will be forever gone, wiped out, sin and affliction will arise no more. Perhaps you need to check the dictionary definition for such words as “perish”, consume”, “destruction”, destroy”.

    Jesus said in the Sermon on the Mount that he did not come to destroy the law, but to fulfill (fill to the full) the law and that the tiniest pen stroke would not pass from the law. Now if fulfill means “to do away” with then how are we to understand Jesus’ statement to John the Baptist in Matt. 3:15, or the other 89 places this word is used in the New Testament. Replace “fulfill” with “do away with” and you are preaching another Gospel. Could we agree that Jesus is our example? 1 John 2:6 admonishes us to walk as Jesus walked. Even if you want to argue all around the clear testimony of the Word of God, how can you deny the Savior’s example? Jesus’ testimony of Himself was that He had kept all the commandments of the Father (John 15:10, please note that we abide in His love when we keep the commandments as He did, which was by complete reliance upon the Father). That includes the 7th day Sabbath. Luke 4:16 says it was His custom to go to the synagogue on the Sabbath day (a custom is a common practice), where He would read the scriptures (Luke 4:17). What I find amazing in Christ’s example is that even in His death, while accomplishing the work of our redemption, He rested on the Sabbath in the grave. No matter how you want to convolute the writings of Paul, we can just look at Jesus, our example, and do as He did. I do not know your professed denomination and it does not matter, but perhaps you would take the time to go to this link to see if your denomination is on the list there. You can click on your denomination’s name and see what they say about a Biblical change of the 7th day Sabbath http://www.sabbathtruth.com/sabbath_quotes.asp . Just do it to check out what the Catholic Church claims regarding the Sabbath.

    It is unfortunate that you seem to view the prophecies with such disdain. Jesus instructs us in Matt. 24:15 and Mark 13:14 to understand something specific about the prophecies of Daniel. If Jesus said it don’t you think it is important? I am not judging you in regard to where your heart is with the knowledge that you have. But if you refuse to search the scriptures and receive the messages that the Holy Spirit is sending your way, even if it conflicts with your cherished beliefs, then I can only point you to your own statements as to what will happen to you when Jesus returns.

    In Matthew 24, where Jesus is giving a two-fold prophecy (He is foretelling both the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 and His second coming), He tells His disciples to pray that their flight would not be in the winter or on the Sabbath (original word is sabbaton, the 7th day Sabbath). If Christ was going to do away with the 7th day Sabbath at His death, then why did He make this statement?

    If you think 9-11 was bad, just wait until the winds of strife are completely loosed. This country will be on its knees and they will pass a law enforcing worship (“we must return to the worship of God, that’s why these calamites are happening.” Heard any statements like that before?) in direct violation of God’s law. You will hear the Loud cry of God’s remnant people saying “we must obey God rather than men” (Acts 5:29). I can only pray that the Holy Spirit will bring to your mind this dialog and perhaps then you will say “I see”. Over the past several days I have left you with more than ample scripture references to keep you busy if you are a sincere seeker for Truth. Thanks for the chat.

    Blessings,
    3rd Angel

  18. 3rd Angel says:

    Bill,
    BTW, if you check out what the Catholic Church says in the link above you just might be able to figure out what denomination I belong to.

    Blessings,
    3rd Angel

  19. Bill says:

    3rd Angel,

    God Almighty wrote in His Holy Word that we have to decide for ourselves which days we should esteem. The Bible is precious to me, and I didn’t mean to imply otherwise, but what I meant is that while you go through a rigamarole to prove your point, you’re reaching a different conclusion than the clear teaching of the Bible.

    You say the church doesn’t discipline for breaking the Sabbath, but I wasn’t talking about churches. I was quoting the Bible. In the Bible we don’t judge each other for whether we keep the Sabbath, but we do for adultery, idolatry, etc.

    I assume you’re Seventh Day Adventist, and I have no idea why you would be ashamed of it to the point of not being willing to even tell me.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  20. 3rd Angel says:

    Funny, I believe that my points are the clear teaching of the Bible. The Bible has clearly defined that Sabbath breaking is punishable by death (Numbers 15:32-36).
    I am not ashamed to say I am a Seventh-day Adventist, I just didn’t feel that it was pertinent to our discussion. I have nothing more to say. I have shared what I have been called to share. My duty is done.

    So Long,
    3rd Angel

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