Human Sacrifice in America

We think of human sacrifice as something of the distant past, but some religions still practice this—whether directly or indirectly. Various religions perform such sacrifices to please their gods so that the followers will be blessed with riches and comfort on earth or in heaven after death.

1 Corinthians 10:19-20 says, “Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, not to God…” If someone offers a sacrifice of some sort to any god but the one true God, he or she is actually making that sacrifice to demons. I’m sure demons are happy with whatever they can get, but it made me think: What kind of sacrifice would be most coveted by demons? I believe it would be human sacrifices. A dead person no longer has a chance to be saved from hell.

  • Islam is one of the most obvious examples of a religion in which human sacrifice is still being practiced. Devout Muslims believe that the only way to be guaranteed entrance into paradise is to die in jihad. No Muslim knows whether or not he or she’s lived a good enough life to get to heaven. Human sacrifice (of self) is the only way a Muslim can know that he or she has pleased Allah adequately to earn his or her way into paradise.
  • Jehovah’s Witnesses have a doctrine that says that blood transfusions are unacceptable. To make the issue more complex, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society seems inconsistent and confused on the various technologies that they allow. Hundreds of Jehovah’s Witnesses have died because of this policy. The most heart-wrenching stories involve children who need such treatment, but the parents don’t allow it. This policy is self-sacrifice or sacrifice of children to appease Jehovah, based on a verse that says not to eat meat with blood in it (Acts 15:29).
  • In the 1800s, Mormons held to a doctrine of blood atonement. This demanded that if someone committed a horrible sin, such as murder or adultery, his or her own blood would be shed through death to atone for that sin. It’s unclear whether the religion still officially believes this doctrine, but the Mormons who committed human sacrifice of others or themselves certainly believed it.
  • The first time a Wiccan or someone of similar beliefs points to a tree and tells you that tree is his or her god, any frustration you have for the confused ideas of the lost world becomes pity. Environmentalism is a religion for many people, and Mother Earth is their god. The space shuttle Columbia exploded on re-entry due to a chunk of the insulating foam breaking off earlier in the mission. The foam had been replaced because of an EPA directive to no longer use foam that used Freon as a component. A similar story of a technology change for environmental purposes is the Challenger disaster of 1986. Fourteen of America’s brightest individuals died for Mother Earth. You can check out this article.
  • The worship of Molech is discussed in the Bible. At one time the Israelites had an idol of Molech right outside of Jerusalem. They would start a fire inside the metal idol until it glowed red hot, and then place their babies in the outstretched arms of the idol. If they carried out this sacrifice, they believed, Molech would ensure their prosperity and ease of life.

    Today Molech is unheard of, but abortion is common and broadly accepted. The end result isn’t any different than placing a child into the hands of a burning statue. It is killing a child so that the mother and father can go on to college or careers without a “burden,” or because they can’t afford to raise the child, or another reason that is chillingly similar to that of those who sacrificed to Molech—prosperity and ease of life.

Proverbs 8:35–36 says, “For whoever finds me finds life and receives favor from the LORD. But whoever fails to find me harms himself; all who hate me love death.”

Is there any doubt that whatever power dominates these religions and systems hate the LORD? Is there any doubt that they love death?

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37 Responses to Human Sacrifice in America

  1. hughstan says:

    I had never seen all this in the way you explain it, but it makes good sense.

    Thank you.

  2. […] Human Sacrifice in America Posted on October 4, 2007 by Tom Source post here:  Human Sacrifice in America « Fisher of Men […]

  3. ila says:

    This post is an interesting take on world religions. I’d add one thing. The Muslims who sacrifice don’t merely sacrifice self—they most often take other people (many who don’t worship Allah) down with them. From what I understand, they believe that getting rid of those who don’t believe in Allah earns favor with him. So I would venture to say that they are pleasing their god by offering human sacrifices.

    If you’re a Muslim, I’d love to hear your take on this.

    Thanks,

    ila

  4. darvish says:

    The sacrifice of self, which is a poor term for it, is actually in Islam the attempt to tame or overcome the ego, the lower self, or the nafs, as they are called, the Commanding self, which is the root of selfishness, hatred, greed, enmity, etc. This is the same kind of struggle known to the Desert Fathers of early Christianity, the Buddhist monks, the Sufis, and all who follow a spiritual path.

    The title is catchy. perhaps to gain a lot of hits, but is misleading.

    Peace and Blessings!

  5. Excellent post. So correct in far too many ways. I will be sure to return to this blog in the future.

  6. billphillips says:

    Darvish,

    Christians are called to be living sacrifices in Romans 12:1-2 (overcome pride, selfisheness and sinfulness). Christians should submit to death rather than compromise their beliefs, but they don’t go around seeking martyrdom.

    How is dying in a jihad, to be guaranteed 72 virgins overcoming selfishness?

    Thanks,
    Bill

  7. […] Are modern societies and ideologies evolving or does mankind simply repackage the same old stuff?  Maybe we aren’t dumb enough to worship carved stone or wooden objects, but maybe in today’s world we just create idols in our own minds and seek to serve our own thoughts and desires instead.  Check out this post on human sacrifice in our modern world.     […]

  8. Nobody says:

    Well I shouldn’t be allowed to post as I’m not as literate as I could (perhaps should) be. But I’d like to point out that in the Old Testament that Isaac (I think) was ordered to sacrifice his son. Now even though he was stopped he had the intent of killing his son which I think you can equate with the intent of say a jihad. Intent in my opinion is equally important to action if your intent was to kill and you were going to follow through with it except if some external force prevents you you might as well have done it. Also like previously stated martyrdom is similar, Islams die for they’re believes and Christians are expected to do the same if the situation calls for it (and being willing to die so that you can go to eternal paradise is also not overcoming selfishness just btw)

    As for the example of the Wiccans and the space shuttle, sure it my seem that people saying that a tree is they’re god is absolutely crazy. But in reality (again based on what little knowledge I have about the subject) they don’t worship trees, they say that divinity is in all things but the object/subject is not the divinity. So you have a person to who it is essential to protect earth/living things/nonliving things. (which surprise surprise just happens to include humans) Who doesn’t necessarily have the first clue about materials who happens to find out “hey this is poisonous”. Who then responds (rightfully) with trying to have it’s use minimized as to protect the things that’s sacred to them, (which as a reminder is the earth living things – including humans – and nonliving things) which unfortunately through circumstances unforeseen by them causes the some people to lose they’re lives. (just by the way I seriously doubt that they’re “America’s brightest individuals” sure they might be really bright but being the brightest amongst approx 250 mil is kinda tough you’d almost have to be Nicola Tesla) You can’t subscribe they’re deaths one these people you should pin it on “America’s brightest” engineers who didn’t spec the material correctly and/or failed to design the shuttle properly and/or failed to make sure the people who build it did it correctly. (by the way technically the engineers should be charged with murder or in the very least involuntary manslaughter as the engineers are the ones responsible for the objects proper function whether it’s a roof or a shuttle) Which thus caused the the thing to explode.

    So after my long winded rant (sorry about the length I didn’t anticipate it to be this long) the point I’m trying to make is be very careful about the accusations you make. Christians can (and should) learn from the so-called “heathens” yeah the Islam with they’re jihad isn’t good (to say the least) but they’re 5 billion times more faithful than Christians (by the way there’s not one Christian who I can point to and say “that person is willing to die for his/her faith). Sure the Wiccans have some weird ideas but they love everything, does “love thy neighbor as thy love thyself” sound familiar?? They actually believe that and act upon it, or at least they do it as much as possible trying to improve where they don’t do it. (yeah I’m generalizing) Christians… well (not counting my family) I’ve met one family and one other person (I can’t say the same for the rest of his family though) that live with love being one of they’re core values, or at least try.

    Now I’m not bashing Christianity (my parents are Christians and they actually try to live like Jesus would have, not always succeeding but always trying) and I’m not bashing you as you might be the exact opposite of the picture that I painted. I’m also not bashing one of them since I believe myself to be perpetually misinformed and misinterpreting everything. (meaning that I don’t believe I or anybody else for that matter can every know truth in its true (I just couldn’t resist :D ) form) So that’s the end of my rant if I’ve gotten you to think “hey maybe I could better myself in this way to be more congruent with my core believes (especially if it seems utterly insignificant, the insignificant things are the things that matter most)” (which should – according to your believes – be to be more like Jesus) or “hey maybe what I believe this little thingy (again especially insignificant things) to be is not entirely what it truly is”
    then great if not no hair of my back. This was mostly just me venting my frustration at all the people who push they’re misguided just plain wrong thinking as the truth. (which I don’t believe I did once but if my wording is wrong I’ll happily correct it as my intention is not to put this as fact but just a small kids idea on how the universe works. Which has gotten _really_ looong.)

    The Little Kid Who Hopes.

  9. billphillips says:

    Nobody,

    Thanks for your thoughtful reply. You make a lot of good points.

    One thing I would point out is that it’s hard to tell who is and who isn’t willing to die for their faith, when Christians in America are never faced with that choice. However, throughout history, and even today, there are Christians dying for their faith. You can check out Voice of the Martyrs for more info on that.

    I agree that the average Wiccan isn’t into human sacrifice. However, ideas have consequences. Some people take ideas farther than others, and they place more value on mother earth than on humans, much less the one true God. They exchange worship for the Creator for worship of the creation. This is idolatry, and is a violation of the 1st and 2nd of the Ten Commandments.

    If you don’t know the truth, that’s fine, but you shouldn’t assume that no one else has the truth. I assure you that you can find the truth if you keep looking. I can point you in the right direction if you’re interested. It’s extremely important that you find it.

    Thanks again,
    Bill

  10. Nobody says:

    I have to admit I kinda didn’t think about circumstances, and I do agree that there are Christians who are willing to die for they’re faith. Though I can’t say I’ve had the privilege to meet one unfortunately. On the point of placing more value on the earth than one humans I can’t agree because the little I know they worship a God and a Goddess (who are in balance) and as I think I said they strife not to harm any thing. (the Wiccan rede says “and it harm none, do what you will”) But I also can’t disagree because I don’t really know that many people who are Wiccans.

    The one thing that I still stand by is that in my experience Christians don’t practice what they preach and it’s not the big things it’s the little things the things that really matter. For example if somebody doesn’t have any food one meal can make an entire world of difference one sandwich for that matter. It’s really not much and nobody would notice not having a sandwich if they’ve got a job and a house and a steady income.

    I used the part on they dying for they’re faith, wrongly, I have to admit, and I admit there’s people that are really willing to do that. But I think that people will be more willing to do that than give someone a sandwich, I guess a sandwich isn’t that glorious. :) I’m not really into the big things like miracles people die for what they believe in or any of those things. (soldiers did that by the billions over the course of history)

    It’s the little things that I find lacking like for example the one church we went to, like all other churches said that you should help those in need. Then my parents couldn’t get a job for about 2 years. (us kids couldn’t get jobs either the little we tried) We didn’t have money and a little later we didn’t really have food. So we lived on pap and cabbage (just so you know pap is a somewhat traditional food like porridge but it’s made with maize meel(?) water and salt if you have it) and then every Christian we knew helped us out… o no that’s not it they didn’t lift a finger to help us. Our neighbors (who also went to the same church) didn’t even let my little brother play there anymore. (not that directly but they kinda “politely” tried to be busy all the time and stuff) We got a table of dead chickens from the one farmer (the chickens died of heat exhaustion and a check for the electricity so my dad can try to find a job. But that was all of the help we got from the people who keep talking about helping others, and this wasn’t the only people who did it, that was after we moved just over 200km. (long story) Our situation started long before that.

    Ok I’ve gotten completely sidetracked, What I should have said in the beginning is, just look at the other side of the argument. Islam says all other religions are wrong Christians says the same this one says it and that one says it and all are willing to commit murder to get they’re point across and “save” the others. Now technically there’s no way to prove conclusively that one really _is_ the truth. Unless you look from a reality orientated viewpoint but then all are the truth since there has been a thought about it. (if you don’t understand that last statement don’t worry about it, but if you want I could elaborate on it) But I think everybody should just look then think “what can I learn from that insert_religion_or_believe_system_or_idea_or_object_here over there” there might be less killings and robberies and rapes. Eat the meat spit out the bones most religions have at least one good point that one can learn from. Hehe I guess I’ve gotten really sidetracked, again.

    As for knowing the truth I believe truth is like perfection you can strive for it and you can get close to it but absolute truth, like perfection, is unattainable. So yeah I’m looking for truth (not just religious truth) and one day I might come close to it. I found what I think is the “correct” way and I’m going to stick with it and see where it takes me, and in the future if I find something that looks like it’s more “correct” than the path that I’m following, I’ll switch to that. But thanks for the offer.

    The Little Kid Who Types To Much.

    P.S Just something I forgot to say in the first message, sorry for the incoherency I’m pretty scatter brained and I tend to write/speak the way I think. :) And also I think it sounds like I belittle the part on dying for ones faith that is in no way my intention, and I really should word it differently but I have no idea how.

  11. billphillips says:

    Nobody,

    I want to tell you a story I heard. I doubt that it’s true, but it’s on the topic we’re discussing. In the old Soviet Union, two soldiers kick in the doors of a secret church meeting, with their AK-47’s, and shout at the people, saying, “If you’re not willing to die for Jesus, get out of here.” Half the people left. The soldiers put down their guns, sit down, and tell the pastor to continue preaching. They explain that they wanted to get rid of those who were half-hearted in their faith.

    I agree with you that here in America, if something like that happened, probably 90% of people would run out. The Bible talks about false converts–people who claim to be Christians, but really aren’t. If someone isn’t willing to die for Jesus, why would they be willing to live for Him? I suspect that might be the problem with your family’s experience with your church. Many people are false converts, and they’re not willing to act out their faith. They’re only willing to show it off when it’s convenient. I’m sorry for your experience. You should read Matthew 25:31-46 if you get a chance.

    Islam and Christianity are really the only religions that say you must adhere to it or you will go to hell. Buddhism, Mormonism, Hinduism, Judaism all say that you can come to God however you want, and you’ll be okay. Islam, if you’ve read the Quran says that people must convert to Islam or die. That is how Islam spread for the first several hundred years, and today in some places. Christianity says nothing like that. It says that people are converted by God himself doing a supernatural work in them, and God uses Christians only to preach the Gospel.

    I think this little test would help you understand Christianity better. I know you’ve gone to church, but I think this might help. Check out http://livingwaters.com/good/

    Thanks,
    Bill

  12. Nobody says:

    Whether or not that story is true it’s a rather good point. I’m really glad Christianity doesn’t say “follow us or die” I have enough problems with dictatorships without adding one more to the list. Interesting link, though I never could understand how a loving mercy full God could throw anything into such suffering for eternity. Doing that for a long time I could understand but for eternity without even the hope of getting out or dying?? I don’t think there’s even sadists who’s that cruel, ok no I can’t say that I’m pretty sure someone out there really is that cruel. That said like you said about false converts I’ve been a Christian for most my life but I can’t say that I agreed with most of what is taught and as such I can’t really say that I believe it. So if I don’t agree with most of it how can I really be a Christian? Now I lie allot (everybody does) but I don’t lie to myself, and that’s why I’m not a Christian anymore. Now I’m not closed to Christianity, I just try to make my choices logically and rationally. So if I find out something that makes Christianity look like the right choice I’ll go back, but I’ll go back with more knowledge and hopefully more wisdom. Which in my opinion is not a bad thing.

    By the way so far this has been a rather nice and somewhat interesting talk.

    The Little Kid Who’s Made Up His Mind

  13. billphillips says:

    Nobody,

    God is infinitely loving and merciful. He’s also infinitely just, holy and righteous. If someone raped and killed your loved one, does God care about that? Of course. He wants to see justice served as much as you would. Most people don’t have any problem with someone like Hitler or rapists or child molesters going to hell. In fact, haven’t you ever wondered why God didn’t kill those people before they committed their crime? But God is so holy that He’s not just going to punish rapists and murderers. He’s going to punish liars, thieves, and adulterers. James 2:20 says that if we’ve ever broken one of God’s laws that we’re lawbreakers, and we’re guilty of breaking the whole thing. The reason He doesn’t kill rapists and murderers before they commit their crime is because He is merciful, and He even wants to give them ample opportunity to repent and put their faith in Jesus. If He killed them, He would also have to kill us after we told our first lie, because He is so holy.

    Let’s say God sets it up so that if anyone that lives a life that is 90% good (which is impossible), they’ll go to heaven. What if someone lives a life that is 89.9% good? It would be sad to miss heaven by such a small margin. So, we should lower it to 50%, right? Then you still have the problem of the guy that got 49.9%. We could lower it to 1%, but you still have the problem of the guy who gets 0.9%. If we lower it to 0%, everyone gets in, and God is corrupt, because Hitler gets away with murder, and he can have the mansion next to yours. I have a problem with any percentage you want to pick, except one.

    God chose 100%. You have to live a perfect life to get into heaven. You have to never have told a lie, which you’ve already admitted to, and I admit to as well. The truth is we’ve all broken God’s law, and we all deserve to go to hell. We’re dead in our transgressions (Ephesians 2:1), and we’re enemies with God (Colossians 1:21). I understand that eternal hell can be hard to understand, and I certainly don’t relish the idea of eternal torture, but it’s what the Bible says. We’ve sinned against an infinite God so the punishment is infinite.

    So The Little Kid Who’s Made Up His Mind has made up his mind to rebel against his Creator, trample all over God’s Holy Law, and make himself enemies with God. While you’ve done that, and all of us have or did at one point, the good news is that while we were enemies with God, Jesus still died for us. He didn’t have to. He wanted to. Jesus said that the greatest act of love is to give one’s life for a friend. Jesus didn’t give His life for friends, He gave His life for His enemies. He proved that everything I’m telling you is true, by rising from the dead.

    You should examine the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus. You should also feel free to examine the theories against the resurrection. A good book might be “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. It should be in every library in America.

    I hope that makes sense, and that it wasn’t too long.

    Bill

  14. Nobody says:

    I admit that attaching a percentage to the amount of righteousness is stupid and that punishing everybody to the same extent avoids having to resort to fuzzy logic. Which in this situation is arguably fallible, so yes punish everybody to the same extent that works for me. I also agree that most people go to prison and come back out with nothing changed. But I still can’t see anything that is infinitely loving and mercy even though its also infinitely just and righteous as well can resort to something that bad that is definitely something I can’t fathom. And yes somewhere in the Bible it’s stated what’s smart in God’s eyes is stupid in mans eyes but I still can’t really wrap my head around this. (although I imagine hell and all those places to be pretty big so I’ll need a head that’s a lot bigger to wrap it around them :))

    I don’t see it as rebelling (yes according to Christian doctrine I am) I just can’t make everything fit together and everyone saying conflicting things and the Bible having “seemingly” conflicting ideas doesn’t help either. Also since the Bible isn’t the original language it’s pretty much at the mercy of the translators, who also can’t be sure that they’re working with the original text. It’s rather easy to make a close-to-perfect fake which can’t be told apart from the original and in which you just change a few things. With all that I can’t say I believe what I guess I’m “suppose” to believe. I’m not willing to force myself to believe something as then I’m creating a conflicting dictatorship within myself. (having something of a dictatorship in myself to rule myself is great as long as it’s congruent with myself) So I chose instead of lying the whole time saying that I believe in something that I really can’t I’ll tell the truth and find something else that does make sense to me and in which I can believe, and if that thing just happen to be Christianity so be it. But the same is true for some other religions if one of them makes sense to me and it’s ideas works them I’ll happily adhere to it. What I did was try to find something which is congruent with what I believe and think, which I believe puts me in a one up on “Christians” who sit in the church and then does something entirely different the rest of the time.

    On the topic of “fake Christians” what happens to them? I mean they accepted Christ as they’re lord and saviour, then what about the person who knows about Christianity and lives accordingly but never consider themselves Christians? Or perhaps the person who never heard of Christianity? Or the person who does wrong with the right intentions (perhaps out of lack of knowledge) or the person who does right but with the wrong intentions. (like someone who tries to get everybody he meets mad enough to kill but only succeed in making people laugh) I personally believe that there are too many variables to objectively state that certain things are true.

    The Little Kid And The Quantum Entropy Machine

  15. billphillips says:

    Nobody,

    I think you’re asking good questions. I know that the Bible is supernatural, meaning God wrote it. I hope that everything I tell you is an accurate representation of what it says, but I would encourage you to check what I say by the Bible.

    If you’re going to kind of make up a religion of your own, you have to base that on some information that you get from somewhere. It sounds like you’re basing everything on the Bible, and your own thinking. You have to be careful when you do that. While we can think our own thinking is common sense, it comes from our desperately wicked heart (Jeremiah 17:9). While our thinking may even make sense to others who are desperately wicked, do we really want to trust a desperately wicked heart? I propose to you that you trust only the Bible. It’s the only supernatural book we have.

    You can check out http://www.carm.org/bible.htm for evidence for the Bible’s reliability. There is amazing manuscript evidence for the Bible, and you’ll just have to take a look at it for yourself.

    If fake Christians can’t fool you and me, they’re not going to fool God. Check out Matthew 7:21-23. It’s really sad to think about actually. Accepting Christ as Lord and Savior really won’t save anyone. That’s lingo Christians use, along with asking Jesus into your heart, but it’s nowhere in the Bible. The correct way to get saved is repentance and faith in Jesus (Mark 1:15).

    Many of these questions from your last paragraph will clear themselves up when you really understand the Gospel. Jesus said no one is good (Luke 18:19). We all deserve to go to hell. If He chooses to let some people into heaven, that is amazing grace.

    John 11 is the story of Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead. In verse 43, Jesus commanded Lazarus to come out. Lazarus was incapable of obedience to this command, being dead and all. Nevertheless, Jesus raised him from the dead. In the same way, Jesus commands everyone to repent and put their faith in Him. We are born dead in our transgressions (Ephesians 2:1), and incapable of obeying that command, as much as Lazarus was incapable of obeying Jesus’ command. Nevertheless, Jesus will raise some of us from the dead, giving us the ability to repent and put our faith in Him. Why did He choose to raise me from the dead? I truly don’t know. It’s not because of anything I’ve done.

    He will raise you from the dead if you truly seek Him. He has promised that. As far as understanding how hell can be just, that’s hard to understand and hard to explain, and I don’t like to think about it. If I lied to a kid, the kid can’t punish me. If I lied to my boss, he could fire me. If I lied in court while under oath, I could go to jail. I lied to the U.S. government, under the right circumstances, I could be executed for treason. It’s the same sin in each case, but the consequences are determined by the importance of who we lied to. All of our sins are against God, who is infinite. Therefore the penalty is infinite. Hell is a place where God’s wrath is unleashed. It makes what Jesus did to save us all the more loving. God’s wrath was poured out on Jesus, so that it wouldn’t have to be poured out on me.

    I just want to encourage you to continue to try to make sense of all of this. You shouldn’t try to believe without understanding. One thing I would point out is that the Bible is the only source of supernatural information we have. I will do whatever I can to help this make sense, and I enjoy the conversation.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  16. Nobody says:

    Actually if I’m not mistaken God didn’t write it Himself, it was written by people who listened to God. Or at least that’s what my take on it is.

    You are quasi-correct I am basing allot on the bible as it has some good information, things that I think is an excellent reference for how one _should_ live ones life. I primarily base my believes on _my_ thinking and judgment as I think it’s stupid to accept to what other people say without thinking it through thoroughly. But I also read allot with which I add ideas, and if it seems logical I incorporate it into my own believes. (just on the subject of logic, in my opinion logic is infallible as everything is logical if one observe something which logic dictates as impossible then your not using logic) Which is one reason why I’m not an atheist as that just can’t make sense…. at all. Yes I’d rather trust my own–for the sake of argument–wicked thinking than trust a a book that’s been through more translations that one can count which could have been forged thousands of times. I think it’s harder to tamper with me directly than to tamper with a book which is kept behind closed doors in a musty basement. (the last statement as to where it’s kept isn’t based on anything at all I just like to exaggerate sometimes :))

    I really believe in the part where nothing is save from tampering, as I believe that there are things that people don’t know about. For example people might say (like they like to do in America) it’s a free country so we’re protected. But what if you find out something that your “not suppose to know”? I’ll answer that your very likely to be assassinated. (you can’t argue with that point people get assassinated everyday for knowing to much) Now if someone high up is willing to assassinate people for knowledge, does is seem that far fetched that the bible could be altered in certain ways? It’s already said that the most of todays translations is “badly” translated just the small things that makes the worlds difference, so why not just remove the original and replace it with something that’s just about identical but with some subtle differences?

    Unless you mean it that way, (which I highly doubt) you should check your wording in how you get into heaven as your current wording makes it sound like a game of chance.

    Well I agree this has been a fun conversation so far but I’m running out of things to ask and things to argue about. So I think this might be my last post (unless one of us can think of something really interesting) and besides that I’m starting to lose focus as I’m very ADHD so yeah. I’m actually surprised that my attention stayed this long. :)

    The Little Kid On A Sugar Rush

  17. billphillips says:

    Nobody,

    Salvation isn’t by chance. God determines it. I don’t know how He determines it.

    If you’ll look at the website I gave you, or even just the tab above about the Bible’s reliability, you’ll see that the manuscript evidence for the Bible is overwhelming. You can reject the overwhelming evidence if you choose, but that would just be another indicator that you’re an enemy of God with a wicked heart.

    You have zero innate knowledge of the supernatural. You will find no truth that way. In addition, we all have an enemy who will disguise himself as an angel of light. Your wicked heart, even if it could find the truth, has to discern what comes from God and what comes from Satan.

    I’ll pray for you, and I appreciate the conversation.

    Bill

  18. Nobody says:

    Ok mostly as you sound pretty accusatory in the last post. Not saying you are trying to be but that’s what it sounds like. I’d like to make somethings clear which seems to have been lost in transmission. I’m not questioning whether the true original bible could be true or that it does exist or that the true original version is correct. What I meant was that I’m questioning the current version and translations of it and whether the one that is currently displayed as the “original” is actually the true original. In this day and age everything can be forged so completely that it’s close to imposable to tell the forgery apart for the original, and if you go a little bigger, you can arguably make an entire city disappear and convince people that it never existed. (that’s somewhat of a big exaggeration but something on a similar scale is entirely possible) I’m also still reading through the last link as that’s quite a bit of information.

    I still think your wording on the salvation is wrong, I know enough of Christianity to know that it isn’t by chance. But lets take a look at it from a different point of view. Lets say that Joe A Dude is thinking hey maybe I don’t want to go to hell, and reads that, he sees “God has some unknown way of deciding who goes to heaven and who don’t, and nothing I can do can get myself in so I might as well continue with what I’m doing” . So from a human view point it seems like a game of chance. Like a pseudo-random-generator it’s not random but it’s close enough to be so thoroughly confused for it to be used in things that have to be cryptographically secure. Now yes I’m taking it pretty far but I mean it constructively, just think about it things like that can make a world of difference as some people have a tendency to take things literally. (which doesn’t exclude me)

    On “supernatural” according my dictionary nature means (among other things) the creation. So there is only the creation and then God (according to Christian believe) there can’t be a “supernatural” since God created everything and the only way to have a “supernatural” (this part is a little shaky) is to say that God himself is created but created higher. Which is not possible according to the bible.

    So from the previous paragraph, that concludes that the sentence “You have zero innate knowledge of the supernatural” is in error. Although I will assume that you mean the spirit world or of the deity as that’s what you seem to have meant. (correct me if I’m wrong) Now on that note yeah one has no innate knowledge of deity/deities or of the spirit world but no one is born with an innate knowledge of language or anything else either. People “pick up” language as they go along, and everything else, some people don’t just pick it up they search for it and accumulate it and try to use it for some (hopefully) constructive goal. So yes I’m not born with an innate knowledge of anything but that’s why I think as much as possible and try to accumulate as much knowledge as possible. But that’s also why I try to look at all the different view points then try to create another viewpoint, and after all that I’d say that I have a (hopefully and in best case, as close as possible) truthful viewpoint. I also just about never discard something as useless or “wrong” even if it’s wrong it might trigger an idea that is “right”. So to flat out contradict your statement, yes you can find truth that way. It might be harder, or a longer process but at least you live your life to it’s fullest. (if your sincere in your search) Someone once said “it’s not about the destination but about the path”. I truly believe that.

    As for the part on truth. Isn’t truth the same no matter who it comes from? I mean if I’m not mistaken thats the nature (for lack of better word) of truth, it’s a constant. Even if you look at it from different philosophical viewpoints. You can’t have truth that’s false from a certain viewpoint, otherwise it’s not truth anymore.

    As for why I replied it’s not that it suddenly got more interesting but I think that you got a little shaky in your last post. Which prompted you to make allot of assumptions about why I do things and how I do things, and also some accusations which I’m not that impressed with.

    Case in point “If you’ll just look at the website I gave you, or even just the tab above about the Bible’s reliability” which implies that I haven’t. Now I’d just like to point out before I continue that that is a pretty extensive resource and pretty tough reading material, and you have to wade through allot of stuff before you get to the part concerning the bibles reliability. Better way would have been “have you looked at that website I gave you?” or “I don’t know if you looked at that website but if you looked then you should have seen this and this” then I most probably would have replied “yeah I have, but I haven’t gotten far yet as it’s been only a day and that I’m pretty busy”. Then maybe I’ve read it and I still stand by my point you might have asked why, and I might have replied something like I did above. Only I might have included that I have certain paranoid tendencies (which I’m working on) and am somewhat of a misanthrope. Which just might have made you realize “Oh so he’s not against the bible (like he said earlier) just that he thinks that people might have tampered with it so he thinks “modern” versions can not be trusted” . In which case if you asked me I would have said “yeah that’s pretty close not everything or really something you can apply in every situation but that’s pretty close”. So that’s what made your last post accusatory (in my opinion) and implied that I do things or think things that is not necessarily the case, and I’m pretty severely against that.

    Just think about what I said since your a minister (my English isn’t that good but you convert people to Christ if I’m not mistaken) you should really learn to use the correct wording. Also you should never ever _ever_ imply that a person is doing things or thinking things in a certain way. (like you did in your last post) You might end up taking things out of context or assuming that said person is doing things because of certain reasons which might be entirely false. You can say “it looks like your thinking like this and if that’s the case there’s where you have holes in your thinking” that can work or something generic can work as well but be careful.

    The Little Kid Who’s Unlike All Expectations.

    P.S I mean everything constructively but I don’t mean it in a way which it doesn’t have any impact. (I believe senseless destruction is stupid, but sometimes you have to destruct to be able to construct)

  19. billphillips says:

    Nobody,

    I’m sorry if something I said offended you. However, I think much like you accuse me of reading things into your response, I think you may have read some things into mine. I do apologize if I said something offensive.

    I’m not a minister of any sort. I have no position in any church or church organization–paid or volunteer. I’m just an obedient Christian.

    I’ll try to quickly explain why we can rely on the Bible that we have today. We have 5000 manuscripts in Greek, the languange the New Testament was written in, from as early as the 2nd century. They match up beautifully. It would take some sort of huge conspiracy to pull off changing the Bible after it had been written. It would be much like changing the Bible today, but with a smaller population–in other words, impossible. If you can’t find an English translation you like, you can learn Greek, and read very early manuscripts for yourself.

    Supernatural, I believe, means outside the natural world. This means God, angels, demons, heaven and hell. The Bible is the only reliable source for information on this topic. You can trust Satan and demons to lie, and the Bible says it’s a sin to communicate with them, anyway. However, you certainly can communicate with demons if you want, and you may do it even if you don’t want to. Wicca is a good way to find demons. Demons are the power behind Wicca, even though the average Wiccan would deny it. That is why I encourage you to study the Bible. It is the only reliable source for supernatural truth.

    I meant what I’ve said about God saving us. He is 100% responsible for people’s salvation. It is a gift. You are unable to obey Jesus’ command to repent and put your faith in Him. Nevertheless, if you don’t, you will spend eternity in hell, whether you like it and whether you understand it or think it’s fair. I truly hope that you will continue to seek answers to your questions, and hope you find the truth.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  20. Nobody says:

    Yeah I guess I did read allot into and I got a little defensive, (yeah the post was pretty attacking but the best defense is an offense) I have to apologize for that. I perceived certain things certain ways as I kinda have had (big) problems with it in the past, which you couldn’t have known about so it wasn’t your fault. That said I still stand by what I said but I think the reasons behind the actions and the way it was delivered was in excusable.

    Sorry about the minister part you said in your about page that you go out and tell other people about the bible and stuff, and I kinda confused terms.

    Even though I kinda think that manipulating the manuscripts at the time of writing is completely possible considering that Christianity was not secret and that the government of that time was severely against Christianity. But I’m willing to assume that that didn’t happen, (as you said it would most probably be close to impossible to do so discreetly in that time) but what I meant was that the original manuscripts and the translations can be rather easily manipulated in the 20th century, yes huge conspiracy but there’s been bigger.

    As for the rest I’m fully aware that according to Christianity I’m on my way to hell. But I haven’t been able to figure out how to tell which religion is the correct one (each one has it’s own “assumptions” and viewpoints from which everything seems hunky dory) and as such I went with the one that looks to me like the truth. Now I can’t truly say but I like to believe that if Christianity is true and I end up in hell at least I’ll take some comfort in that I truly believed what I thought to be true and tried to live accordingly.

    If you still want to pray for me like you said earlier I’ll be honored, as at the very least it shows that you care and at the most (assuming I’m in error) it might even correct me. :)

    The Little Kid And The Question To The Answer 42.

  21. billphillips says:

    Nobody,

    I will certainly be praying for you.

    I know I’ve given you a lot to read, but here’s one more thing, if you’re interested.

    http://www.livingwaters.com/Merchant2/graphics/pdf/WhyChristianity.pdf

    Thanks,
    Bill

  22. Nobody says:

    Hi again :) since our last chat went so well, and the flaming was minimalistic. I decided I’d ask you your opinion on something, now I’m posting here as I don’t know where else to post it and I figured that this is probably the best place to post this as we had our previous conversation here.

    What I’d like to know is you opinion on psychic phenomena, although I’d like to exclude the following due to they’re being easily argued to be direct spiritual interference:
    all kinesises (which includes psycho, piro, cryo, w/e)
    perhaps clairvoyance (this is popularly considered being able to see spirits but more importantly I can’t remember what it’s canonical meaning is and am to lazy to look it up just now :) )

    What I’d like to include:
    telepathy
    empathy (not psychological empathy but psychic empathy there’s a difference)
    auric vision
    energy sensing (pertaining to psychic energy)
    “ESP” or extra sensory perception

    Now my goal in asking you this is mostly just that I’d like to hear you opinion on this. I’d add more but I can’t think of something to say, and the things I’d like to say are reserved for (maybe) later. :)

    The Little Kid Who’s Curiosity Killed Him.

  23. billphillips says:

    Nobody,

    Good to hear from you again.

    Acts 16:16-19 says, “Once when we [Paul and Silas] were going to the place of prayer, we were met by a slave girl who had a spirit by which she predicted the future. She earned a great deal of money for her owners by fortune-telling. This girl followed Paul and the rest of us, shouting, “These men are servants of the Most High God, who are telling you the way to be saved.” She kept this up for many days. Finally Paul became so troubled that he turned around and said to the spirit, “In the name of Jesus Christ I command you to come out of her!” At that moment the spirit left her.”

    “When the owners of the slave girl realized that their hope of making money was gone, they seized Paul and Silas and dragged them into the marketplace to face the authorities.”

    When it says the girl had a spirit, it’s referring to a demon. When the demon left the girl, she lost her psychic abilities.

    Can demons predict the future? Satan has plans, and if God doesn’t step in to thwart the plan, the plan can come to pass. Also, let’s say a judge has made a decision in a case, and writes out his decision and leaves it on his desk. He takes a few days to call court into session to announce his decision. The demons can know the verdict before anyone else does, by simply reading it. Finding out the verdict before it is announced would be seen to everyone, besides the judge, as predicting the future.

    Why would the slave girl’s demon be telling the truth? Jesus alone is the only way to get to heaven (John 14:6). There are hundreds of way to hell. All Satan has to do is make people comfortable in one of the hundreds of wrong ways. If Satan can make someone trust in astrology (or whatever) along with Jesus, that’s good enough for him. I think the demon was trying to confuse everyone.

    Psychic abilities and all the other stuff you listed might seem cool, but it is deadly. All kinds of sinful things seem fun, but in the end lead to death. Satan is our enemy, and he wants only to trick us and take us to hell. In Deuteronomy 18:9-22, God forbids all of these things, and we can look at Him as a party pooper, or as a loving Father that wants to protect us from what is dangerous.

    You can watch the videos of this guy on the internet: http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=%22bill+schnoebelen%22&sitesearch=
    I think the one about “Interview with an ex-vampire” is more or less on this topic.

    What do you think about all of that stuff? Do you have any experience with it?

    Thanks,
    Bill

  24. Nobody says:

    The part on Paul and Silas seems kinda weird as the spirit told the truth about them. although admitted the spirit part is probably pretty bad, and personally I would have been so fed up with her saying that after a day that I probably would have done the same.

    The passage in Deuteronomy forbids the following: soothsayers, wizards, augurs (AFAIK this means using omens to influence or predict stuff), diviners, sorcerers, on who casts spells (not sure on a single word to describe this person), wizards, mediums, and necromancers. I might have missed something but w/e, now as far as I can tell those are all spirit based practices, excepting soothsayers and augurs. (this is somewhat shaky) So for sake of argument those are bad but it didn’t say that, say for instance telepathy is bad, it does seem say that any contact with spirits is bad. So I’ll agree (for sake of argument) that contact with or using spirits for psychic means is bad.

    But psychic practice is not necessarily spiritual. (IMO) See the brain is based on electro-magnetic impulses, so it inevitably radiates EMP. Now since it’s a human brain you _could_ (theoretically) have one persons brain pick up the the EMF from another persons brain (the human body is after all just about the most sensitive and most complex machine that’s ever existed and will most probably stay that way for a _very_ long time) and just “decode” it. (they do something almost identical to remotely see what you’re doing on your computer by picking up the radiation from your monitor and (I think) your keyboard) This is my first and most logical explanation, which just happens to be somewhat wrong, but I find that it illustrates my point pretty well. The reason it’s wrong is because there have been studies where the psychic was put in a Faraday cage and still got results, so it can’t be EMF. But that doesn’t exclude some other (unknown?) energy form (which could be argued that it’s spiritual) so from a scientific viewpoint it’s possible to have certain psychic abilities that doesn’t require spiritual interaction but can be viewed as latent human abilities that’s been grossly neglected. Granted others will have to have “other worldly” intervention. Also if a person just naturally have some of these things what then?

    You (and the passage in Deuteronomy) said that soothsayers (in my understanding it means someone who predicts the future) are also evil. What does that mean for someone who predicts the future by for instance mathematical means? You can (theoretically) predict the future with near perfect accuracy by just using the laws every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Admitted it’s a _little_ more complicated than that but that’s basically all you need.

    So yeah there’s basically what I think (granted I have some other ideas on this topic but that’ll make it pretty long and some of them I’ll have to be asked specifically about a single point to remember it)

    As for experience well I have some arguable experience the most early was between the ages 3-6. Background info, we had this long corridor which was famous (amongst us kids) that if you close all the doors you can get the corridor literally pitch black in the middle of the day. So anyway a few nights (it didn’t happen every night) there was this light in the darkest part of the corridor which seemed to go through the roof and walls it also didn’t have an origin it was just kinda there. One night my curiosity got the better of me and I kinda went to see it so I walked through it, now the really curious thing about it was that it never reflected on anything. So yeah I guess that would count as my first the latter one I can’t really conclusively say that it’s psychic (I’m pretty imaginative and have found that sometimes the line between “reality” and “fantasy” becomes close to nonexistent) but I’ve had some pretty weird things happen to me that can only be explained as either insanity or psychic. Now because of points stated before and just plain laziness I’ll leave my other experiences for a rainy day.

    O just to make this post a _little_ longer I’ve actually thought about this whole lycanthrope and vampire thing. It’s quite interesting the vampire part isn’t _that_ interesting but the lycanthrope is I’ve actually figured how it’s possible to genetically create a lycanthropish human/creature which can actually change from one form to another or at least what will be needed to find a way. Now the problems are that it’ll take at the _very_ least 2 weeks for the transformation but most probably nothing less than 3 months, and it’ll be from one very specific form to another specific form with likely no way to stop once it’s started, so it’ll have to make a complete change before it’ll be able to change again.

    Just one last thing I actually never thought (until recently) that necromancy is possible, I mean how on earth can you possibly create a zombie? (that question is not meant to be answered) Now interesting enough in South Africa (I think) they want to pass a law to ban necromancy in one of the provinces… How weird is that?? It almost sounds like something out of the entertainment world.

    The Little Kid And The Lycanthropish Hamburger.

  25. Nobody says:

    Hi I’ve just been wondering why you haven’t posted yet. Are you still thinking about it? Or did your last post sum up what you think about this topic? Or maybe something else.

    The Little Kid Who’s Patiently Waiting.

  26. billphillips says:

    Nobody,

    Sorry it took so long to get back to you.

    You make a good point that it’s possible to predict the future scientifically in some cases. We have weather predictions on pretty much every newscast, and no one would say that is sinful.

    I think we should be very careful when dealing with these things. Catholics believe that Mary (who is dead, and nowhere in the Bible is said to be anything other than human) will answer their prayers. They also pray to dead saints. This is (kind of) necromancy. We’re only supposed to pray to God (the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit). If anyone ever believes they’re communicating with a dead person, they’re mistaken. Demons are the only ones that will communicate through such methods. 2 Corinthians 11:14 says, “And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.” Who wouldn’t love to see an angel of light? After learning this verse: me.

    It sounds like you know more about this stuff than I do. I would recommend that you not touch it with a ten-foot pole. The Schnoebelen guy whose videos I recommended started out innocently with little seances or whatever, and ended up as a demon-posessed Satanist.

    Thanks,
    Bill

  27. Nobody says:

    I haven’t thought about people praying to dead people being similar to necromancy…. kind of a scary thought now that you mention it. Yeah I have yet to watch those unfortunately as my computer is a little sick at the moment and I’m hesitant to use my bros computer.

    “I would recommend that you not touch it with a ten-foot pole.” Yeah I kind of have a an ineffable curiosity, which have gotten me into trouble more than once in the past. (tip: never ever use methylated spirits to blow fire :))

    Thanks for the talk
    The Little Kid Who Enjoys The Talk.

  28. Donna-Eileann Campbell says:

    I find this very insulting to almost every religion except Christianity . Just because people have different beliefs they are condemned to hell? Really, what happened to free will. When I die I’ll go where ever I damned please not where some deity decided to put me because I did or didn’t believe in a book someone wrote I believe in what I want and the wrath of a god who contradicts itself ain’t scaring me none !!!!

    • Bill says:

      Hello,

      “And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell (Jesus, Matthew 10:28).

      Even if it were true that you have free will, that doesn’t mean you get to do whatever you want. You can only do your own will insofar as it conforms to the law, financial limits, time limits, etc.

      Furthermore, how do you know you’ll get to do what you want when you die? What is your source of information?

      The truth is you will answer to your Creator, whether you like it or not, and you will bow your knee to Jesus Christ whether you like it or not. I would plead with you to get right with Him.

      Thanks for your comment.

      Bill

      • Donna-Eileann Campbell says:

        I ment free will as in believe in who or what I want to believe in what I believe is not necessarily what you believe I don’t push mine on you so don’t push yours on me . If your god wants to try punishing me for not believing in him he can try but he will have to find me first , I will be protected by my deity . If there truly is only one true god why so many different religions and also many of them have been around longer than Christianity so how how can he be the one true god if there are older gods and goddesses . I refuse to believe in a god who says believe in only me or suffer my wrath and isn’t that one of the deadly sins why can he break the rules is it a case of do as I say and not as I do ?

      • Donna-Eileann Campbell says:

        Also I will not bow to your god or any other for that fact . There rant over.

  29. Bill says:

    Hello Donna-Eileann,

    You said, “I don’t push mine [beliefs] on you so don’t push yours on me.”

    Don’t you see that that is you pushing your beliefs on me? That is what is called a self refuting, or hypocritical statement.

    You said, “If your god wants to try punishing me for not believing in him he can try but he will have to find me first , I will be protected by my deity .”

    Rest assured that He knows where you are, what you do, and even what you think at all times. If He is your Lord, that is a good thing. If He isn’t, then it is a terrible thing. You will stand before Him and give an account for every thought, word and deed.

    Your deity will be thrown into the lake of fire, because there is only one true God, and any other god is just a demon impersonating a god, if not just a figment of your imagination.

    There is no older God than the God of the Bible. He is the Creator of the universe. Christianity is merely a continuation of Judaism.

    You said, “I refuse to believe in a god who says believe in only me or suffer my wrath”

    If someone murdered a loved one of yours, and they went to trial and the evidence was clear that they were definitely the guilty party, but the judge let them go free, would you be angry? You should be. Only an evil judge would let a guilty criminal go free.

    The problem is that you are a guilty criminal in God’s eyes (and so am I). You’ve lied, stolen, lusted, and taken His name in vain. You’ve broken His law, and just like any guilty criminal, you must be punished. There is a way to be forgiven, but if you reject Him, you will spend eternity in hell. I don’t want that to happen to you.

    I’d be happy to help you start studying the Bible. The book of John is a good place to start if you haven’t read it in a while. There is no other valid source of spiritual information.

    If you could please answer my other question, I’d appreciate it. What is your source for information for what happens when we die? How do you know your deity is telling you the truth?

    Thanks,
    Bill

    • Donna-Eileann Campbell says:

      Dear Bill please stop trying to convert me I am what I am nothing you can say or do will change that , no where in any of what I have written have I tried push my beliefs on to you . I haven’t named the deity nor have I quoted anything unlike yourself can’t you just deal with the fact I believe in someone other than you’re god . I am not saying he doesn’t exist and I’m not bashing your beliefs please don’t bash mine ok it’s rather offensive and insulting . You should have respect for other people’s beliefs . Just because a person doesn’t believe in what you do doesn’t mean they will burn in hell . My family are all Christian with the exception my father who is Mormon and thinks it’s ok to touch up little girls because somewhere in his book he misread a quote again I am not bashing Mormons just because one guy misreading something doesn’t mean they all will I chose my religion because it’s what I choose to believe just as you did yours.

      • Donna-Eileann Campbell says:

        And fyi twice in my family there’s been murders and the guy went free but not because the judge was evil it was through lack of evidence . Don’t presume to know me . I am not telling you this for your pity I don’t want it nor do I need it . I have my reasons for my faith as you do yours. I will not tell you where my source comes from as I feel you will try to demonize it so much more and as for how do I know my religion is real I ask you the same. What cos the bible tells you so , there are many bibles, one for every religion . Are all these fake gods too all demons as you put it pretending to be God’s and in recognizing other gods ru not going against what you believe that there is only one?

      • Bill says:

        Hello,

        I wouldn’t describe what I’m doing as trying to convert you. I’m trying to explain what the Bible says, because I care about you, even though we’ve never met, and almost certainly never will. I care that you live a life that makes sense, and when you die, that you spend eternity with me in heaven.

        Ultimately, I know that if I were trying to convert you, I would fail. But I know that God can save you any time.

        I really am genuinely curious as to where you get your information about life and death. Of course you don’t have to tell me, but I would like to know. I know that if you held your source of information to the same standard you hold the Bible, you’d have to reject it. You’re seeking anything and everything because you’re rebelling against the God of the Bible, and hoping against hope that it might be true. I know all this is true, because it’s what the Bible says about everyone. I’ve read the owner’s manual for the human race. Apart from Christ, you’re living in rebellion and fear, trying desperately to suppress the knowledge God has implanted in you.

        You said, “What cos the bible tells you so , there are many bibles, one for every religion”

        I’m not sure what you’re referring to. Catholics, Christians, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses, all have the same Bible. It’s just that Catholics, Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses all say the Bible isn’t adequate and add to it.

        You said, “Are all these fake gods too all demons as you put it pretending to be God’s and in recognizing other gods ru not going against what you believe that there is only one?”

        There is one true God, and many false gods. My car could be a god if I worshiped it, but it’s not really a supernatural being.

        I’m not trying to insult you, but I realize that you may be insulted by what I say. The truth isn’t always pleasant.

        Thanks,
        Bill

      • Donna-Eileann Campbell says:

        Yeah I was on on about Muslims Hindus budists pagans etc are all of these religious people going to go to your so called hell because they don’t believe in your God ? You will find that actually no they won’t they will go to their version of whatever heaven is in their own beliefs with God’s and or goddesses that they believe in. I have read the bible of your god so I don’t need it quoted to me. Also do you reject science and history ie the dinosaurs and the big bang because it says in the bible god made the world in a week?

  30. Bill says:

    Hello Donna-Eileann,

    Muslims, Hindus, pagans, etc. are rejecting the God they know exists in favor of trying to reach Him their own way. They will give an account for their lying, stealing, and lust. The Bible says that all liars will have their part in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8). We think of lying as no big deal, but God is the judge, and we’ve broken His law, and He determines the proper punishment. If we disagree that we deserve hell, we’re just like a guilty criminal sitting in his jail cell thinking the punishment is too severe. Of course that is what the guilty criminal thinks.

    You said, “You will find that actually no they won’t they will go to their version of whatever heaven is in their own beliefs with God’s and or goddesses that they believe in.”

    Again, you’re making a claim to have knowledge about what happens after death. How do you know? If you disagree with God’s Word, who do you think I should believe?

    You said, “I have read the bible of your god so I don’t need it quoted to me.”

    Maybe God has brought you here to have a conversation with me, because He wants to give you another chance to hear His message to you. Maybe He’s giving you another chance to repent and trust Him. Please don’t take this lightly.

    Do I reject science? I love science. I have a degree in electrical engineering. Science makes the assumption that an experiment performed on Tuesday will give the same results on Thursday. If you go to start your car and it doesn’t start, you would assume there is a scientific explanation as to why the car doesn’t start. You wouldn’t consider the possibility that the laws of physics have changed since the last time you ran your car.

    This assumption that the laws of nature are unchanging, is an assumption that can only be accounted for from a Christian worldview. You can’t account for it, and atheists can’t account for it.

    Thanks,
    Bill

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