Yeah I don’t know I find it funny that God punishes the Pharaoh in that instance and not Abrahm, when he lies about his marriage – but I guess you’d say I’m trying to put myself in God’s shoes.

I think you are thinking of the “law of biogenesis” (maybe a typo?). Anyhow this is regarding fully formed life, rather than say a replicating nucleic acids. As previously stated I think we are a long way off anything conclusive in that area so I’d rather not make judgement calls. I do think calling atheism false on this basis is a leap of faith though.

On where the matter came from. Well thats another “I dont know” but we have a much better idea here to the point where I’d be pretty happy with saying “We cant know”. Perhaps I can help clear up any misconceptions, are you familiar with quantum mechanics or general relativity?

Also one thing has always puzzled me about young earth creationists, maybe you could help. I’m guessing you believe in “Kinds” and an earth around 6000 years old, yes?

Lying isn’t as bad as murder, I agree. The Bible doesn’t teach that lying is as serious as murder. However, we are guilty of lying, and we as the guilty party do not determine the penalty. We don’t get any input on the fairness of our punishment. God is holy and just, and the penalty for even one lie is eternity in hell.

Regarding Genesis 12, lying has always been a sin. There are many stories told in the Bible where it doesn’t comment on the wisdom or sinfulness of the characters’ actions. Lying is certainly not endorsed in that passage.

A scientist in a lab cannot demonstrate abiogenesis. It has to be shown that life comes from non-life by chance for atheism to be true. The law of abiogenesis states that life cannot come from non-life. It is a scientific principle. To believe that somewhere long ago, in a galaxy far, far away that it did happen is an unscientific step of faith.

I am a young-earth creationist, because that is what the Bible teaches. But, the big bang doesn’t answer the question of where everything came from. Where did the matter come from that exploded? To be an atheist, you have to start with absolutely nothing at some point that came into existence for no reason, by itself.

Thanks,
Bill

I suppose that’s where we differ. For me lying carries nowhere near the same weight as murder – I would, without doubt, lie to save a life.

I just looked up the passage I was thinking about and it wasn’t God, lying it was Abrahm – apologies. Funny though – it kind of ties in to what we’re saying, Arbrahm lies to save Sarah’s life (Gen 12:14-20). Is this a bad example because it comes before the new covenant?

Well abiogenesis is a long way off in my opinion, but you would be hard pressed to argue the big bang theory isn’t based what we observe. Its probably going off topic though unless you believe the bible to represent a young earth.

Hope you and your family had a great Christmas,
Vaughan

There is no need to become a Christian if you don’t feel terrible about your sins. I don’t think you even could become a Christian if you don’t feel guilty.

Your conscience should tell you that lying is wrong. That is a testimony to the Bible. Christianity provides the only logical solution to the problem of sin. This also provides evidence that the Bible is correct.

How many lies do you have to tell before you’re a liar? How many murders do you have to commit before you’re a murderer?

What verse is it where God lies?

Not only does no one know how time, space, matter, energy and life came about by itself, but to posit the theory that it did come about by itself is unscientific and foolish. If there is an effect, there was a cause.

There are several versions of the Bible I like. KJV is probably my least favorite, due to the antiquated English. I like NIV, NASB and ESV best.

Merry Christmas,
Bill

You mentioned earlier that Christianity paying for my sins is evidence of the bible, but you’re also saying sin is breaking God’s laws, this does seem a bit circular to be. I mean that to believe in sin, you would have need to believe in God in the first place.

On the subject of lying, certainly I’ve lied, but I don’t think that makes me a liar anymore than the fact I’ve told the truth makes me a truth-teller. I cant say lying is always bad, in fact I’m pretty sure in the bible God himself lies!

In regard to your question, I don’t know of anyone that can say they definitely they know about space, time, matter and energy. As I understand it the problem is that we cannot hope to measure distances below Planck length. Life is another hard one, as I’m sure you know there’s a whole bunch of hypotheses around it, but again I’m not sure on that.

Hey just so I can check out your verses, which Bible are you using, KJV?

Cheers,
Vaughan

Sin is breaking God’s law, specifically the laws of the God of the Bible. However, there are some laws that I think everyone, including atheists, can agree on. For example, lying is a sin. How many lies have you told in your life? I’ve told more than I can count, and that makes me a liar. The Bible says that all liars will have their part in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8).

Most people think lying is no big deal; everyone does it; surely God isn’t going to send everyone to hell. We are guilty lawbreakers, and we may not like the punishment, but what else would you expect? What criminal is excited about their sentence? The judge determines the sentence–not the criminal. We have an infinite sentence dangling over our heads, and only an infinite payment can satisfy justice.

Of course, there are 9 other commandments, with the same penalty, of which both you and I are guilty in thought or deed, some of which you would agree with, and some you wouldn’t.

Here’s a good site to look at:
http://www.carm.org/evidence-and-answers

There are a few articles about each of the objections you’ve raised on that page under “Evidence supporting Jesus’ existence” and “Answers to objections concerning Jesus’ miracles and resurrection.”

Here’s a question I have for you. Where do you think time, space, matter, energy and life came from?

Thanks,
Bill

Thanks for your time, hope you’re having a good time away during the festive season and I completely understand if conversation is chequered.

Well as you can imagine I don’t see the same evidence for a creator that you do. I don’t know if we should bring that into this thread, but if its core to the argument I’m absolutely willing.

Do you mean sin as in just breaking a religions tenets or Christianity specifically?

Also can you provide a resource or site (when you get back is fine) for the evidence around the resurrection? Compelling evidence here would certainly go a long way to changing my views.

All the best

I’m not sure I would approach the question of whether there is a God, or whether Jesus is Him, in the way you’re approaching it. I’d say there is a Creator, because time, space, matter, and life demands a Creator. Life is filled with information, and information doesn’t come about by chance or non-intelligence. So there is a Creator. That only leaves the question of who He is.

I believe Jesus is God, and Christianity is the correct religion for a couple of reasons. I know that I have sinned. I have broken God’s law, and I deserve to be punished. Christianity is the only religion that provides a payment for my sin.

All religions attempt to deal with the question of making up for sin. Almost all of them say we can do something to pay for our own sins. For example, Islam says that you can keep the 5 pillars and Allah will forgive your sins. That is bribery–not justice. Jesus provides the payment for my sins, and there is nothing I can do to pay for it or earn it. It is a gift.

If you’re looking for some sort of evidence for miracles of Jesus, I would recommend investigating His resurrection. The resurrection of Jesus is one way the Bible offers to falsify Christianity.

I’m away from home right now, and may not be able to check back on this conversation as much as I would like. I appreciate your comment, and I would definitely like to continue the conversation as we have opportunity.

Thanks,
Bill

Let me be open and say I’m an atheist and that I have not yet found any historical evidence for anything but a mythical Jesus. That is to say, I do not believe Paul was talking about an earthly man.

I also note there are a number of factual and historically correct places and events within the bible, but I find these no more compelling than say the city of Troy confirming Achilles could only be killed by his ankle.

I have some questions that will address my main gripes:
How can we trust the historical method of the anonymous gospels writers?
Are their any contemporary (as in around 0 AD) records of a miraculous Jesus?
Is their any archaeological evidence of the miracles in the Bible (say a global flood line)?