I Googled for something completely different, but found your page…and have to say thanks. nice read….

Jesus told us what the greatest act of love is, and the Jehovah of Jehovah’s Witnesses has not performed the greatest act of love by Jesus’ definition. Do you disagree with Jesus that the greatest act of love is to give up your life for a friend?

On a different topic, I keep asking Jehovah’s Witnesses this (and I assume you are one), but I can’t seem to get anyone to answer: Are you born again?

Thanks,
Bill

While this is an amazing display of love, their is an even more loving display.
Give up the life of your first child to save your ungrateful children.

The fact that God sacrificed his firstborn of all creation is not less of a display of love, it is a greater display of love.

The Watchtower is a truly Orwellian world.
—-
Danny Haszard Jehovah’s Witness X 33 years and 3rd generation

There is no doubt that we disagree, and we’ve failed miserably to convince each other of anything. I’m equally disappointed that you insist on believing in more than one god as you are that I don’t see Moses as a god. Nevertheless, I would encourage you to find an answer to the 2 questions I asked at the end of my previous comment here, even just for your own benefit.

I truly appreciate all the time you took to have this conversation.

Bill

Since you can’t seem to formulate a single cohesive answer explaining how Moses is called an elohim in scripture, it’s more than obvious your true interest is not in determining what the Bible says. I’m now taking my leave.

Thanks,
TJ

I completely disagree that Moses is a god of any type. I believe in only one God. The fact that you even leave the possibility open that George Bush may be a god reveals that your definition of god may not be biblical. If you see no problem with being a polytheist, then I guess I have nothing further to say about it.

I think we’ve both covered what we believe on this topic, and failed to convince each other. We both adamantly believe our own position, and think the other is being illogical. That’s fine.

Getting back to what we were discussing before, why do you believe there isn’t an infinite penalty for sinning against an infinitely holy God?

Are you born of the Spirit/born from above/born of God/born again?

Thanks,
Bill

You seemed to be confused on this issue quite a bit, since your statements don’t harmonize with each other. The KJV calls Moses “a god”, yet you say, “Moses can’t be a god”. Well how in the world can you say that that translation of Exodus 7:1 is “fine” with you??? It is completely incompatible with what you are saying!

Now you are asking me if I think George Bush, Egyptian magicians, and parents are gods. I suppose they could be if you consider them to be mighty ones. A god, an elohim, can simply refer to a mighty person. But your questions don’t matter because we are considering what the Bible DOES say, not what it DOESN’T say. The Bible DOES say that there is only one elohim, Jehovah, at Isaiah 43:10, but it also calls Moses an elohim. We have to harmonize these Biblical statements.

You said, again, “Verse after verse after verse from beginning to end says there is only one God.”

Yes, it says that there is one elohim, but it also calls Moses elohim. DO YOU SEE THE PROBLEM???

Moses is not the only true elohim/theos/god, he is an elohim/theos/god in a RELATIVE (or lesser) sense. It means he has divine authority, as you said before. This PROVES that the term elohim/theos/god can be used of others who are not Jehovah and are not false gods.

You said, “If you deny that fact, you are being irrational, and it becomes clear that you no longer care about the truth.”

Bill, seriously, I don’t even know what is going on with what you are thinking/doing here. But your argument which equates Jesus with Jehovah because the term elohim/theos/God is applied to both is completely destroyed by the fact that Moses is called elohim/theos/God. If you can’t accept that or understand it, it doesn’t change the fact that your argument is no good.

I’ll try to answer your last questions. You asked, “NWT doesn’t call Moses a god. It calls him God. If it’s no big deal to call Moses God, why can’t Jesus be called God? Why are so many verses that say Jesus is God changed in the NWT?”

Bill, there is no real difference between “God” and “god”, they both represent the same Hebrew and Greek words. And yes, the NWT does assign the title of G/god to Jesus at Isaiah 9:6 and John 1:1,18, if not elsewhere. But we understand Jesus to be a G/god in the same sense that Moses was. He was given divine authority and power by Jehovah.

And no verses are “changed” in the NWT. They appear “changed” to you because you are assuming that the Bible(s) you are using have the only correct translation of those verses. Every single verse that you can supply, every single one, that you think has been “changed” in the NWT, I can provide other independent translations or scholars that agree with its rendering. I can also provide solid reasoning as to why it is rendered the way it is.

From the beginning of this discussion all the way through to that last question, you have presupposed that the Trinity must be true. Perhaps you don’t see it, but the theology you have been taught is your main basis for your beliefs, not the Bible. You read the Bible in light of the theology you have been taught, so the Bible is secondary in the process. You didn’t read the Bible and then develop your theology from that, rather you read your theology into the Bible.

This is the reason you would say that the NWT “changed” verses. You are not looking at whether or not its translations are actually acceptable renderings of the Greek and Hebrew texts, you are looking at whether or not its renderings agree with your theology. When they do not, you conclude that the NWT has “changed” them.

Thanks,
TJ

When you take one verse, and make a doctrine around it, anything is possible. (Mormons get a whole perverse doctrine of baptizing dead people from 1 Corinthians 15:29.) However, there is only one God. Verse after verse after verse from beginning to end says there is only one God. How specific must God get with you? If you deny that fact, you are being irrational, and it becomes clear that you no longer care about the truth. Is there any way God could word a verse to get you to believe He is the only God? I don’t understand what more you could ask of Him. Isaiah 46:8-9 calls you a rebel or a transgressor for believing there is any god besides the one true God.

Moses can’t be a god. Jesus can’t be a god. Like I’ve said at least twice now, having divine authority doesn’t make someone a god. George Bush has divine authority (Romans 13:1). Do you believe George Bush is a god? Are the Egyptian magicians gods? Do you believe parents are gods? These aren’t rhetorical questions. These are questions you have to answer if you insist on continuing to discuss this topic. Otherwise, please move on.

NWT doesn’t call Moses a god. It calls him God. If it’s no big deal to call Moses God, why can’t Jesus be called God? Why are so many verses that say Jesus is God changed in the NWT? Please answer these questions, or move on to a different topic.

Thanks,
Bill

This is a very strange discussion. You say that Moses is NOT a god, but that he is called elohim in Hebrew. You also say that translations, such as the NWT and KJV, that call him a god are fine. That just doesn’t add up.

Anyways. you are saying that Moses being called elohim means that he is a representative of God, “someone with divine authority”. This is what I have been arguing all along.

Would you say that Jesus is also “someone with divine authority”, considering that he actually tells us, “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth”? Couldn’t Jesus be an elohim in a similar sense as Moses?

Thanks,
TJ