The Jehovah’s Witnesses have completely changed the Bible with their New World Translation. They are desperate to show that Jesus is not God. There is a long list of Scriptures that prove that Jesus is one with God, but the Jehovah’s Witnesses have done their best to edit those out of their bible. The following list works even with their bible.
| Name | Applied to Jehovah | Applied to Jesus |
|
Alpha and Omega
|
Revelation 1:8 |
Revelation 22:13 |
|
Lord of Lords
|
Deuteronomy 10:17 |
Revelation 17:14 |
|
First and Last
|
Isaiah 44:6 |
Revelation 1:17-18, 22:13 |
|
King |
Isaiah 43:15 |
Revelation 17:14
|
|
Owner |
Jeremiah 3:14 |
Jude 4
|
|
Husband |
Hosea 2:16 |
Revelation 21:9
|
|
Savior |
Isaiah 43:11 |
Luke 2:11
|
|
Judge |
Genesis 18:25 |
2 Timothy 4:8
|
The Jehovah’s Witnesses have some other problems as well. In trying to demote Jesus to being lower than God, they say He’s a lesser god, but a god nonetheless (their version of John 1:1 says, “the Word was a god”). In this, they become polytheists, which I’m sure they don’t want to be, and it’s completely contradictory to even their bible.
They also say that Jesus is Michael the archangel. There are zero verses that would indicate this, and there are only a handful of verses that refer to Michael. They’ve been knocking on my door about once a month for the last few months, and I asked the last pair of ladies for their reason for believing that Jesus is Michael the archangel. They quoted Jude 9, “But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!” I just told them that that verse doesn’t even say anything about Jesus.
Since then, I’ve learned that that verse not only doesn’t indicate anything about Jesus being Michael the archangel, but it in fact proves that Jesus is not Michael. Michael called on the Lord to rebuke the devil, but Jesus never hesitated to rebuke the devil or demons Himself (Matthew 4:10, Matthew 17:18, Luke 4:41, etc.).
I think once you’ve got them thinking, this is a good time to go through a few of the Ten Commandments (Galatians 3:24), and conclude by saying that if they don’t have a proper understanding of who Jesus is, they won’t be saved (John 8:24). Any way you look at it, Jehovah’s Witnesses are terribly deceived, and all you can do is make an attempt to correct their understanding. Hopefully it will make them think, and they’ll get saved someday.
Fisher of Men 
Since you have all this enlightened information, I have a suggestion for you: Why don’t YOU go door to door, in the market places, and in the streets, where the people are, in observance of Jesus command to Christians. Matthew 28:19-20 (any translation). It is easy to criticize, but the only ones that are out there day in and day out preaching to all the nations are Jehovah’s Witnesses. If you have a “better” message, get properly dressed and come to my door (or wherever else people are found) and share it with me!
In your message you have marked yourself as a hipocrite…You yourself have just criticized this person. How would you know whether this man/woman goes door to door spreading The Gospel? You should follow your own…GODS advice and not judge others. We should all worry about judging ourselves. There are many ways to Go into the earth and spread The Gospel to every living creature. Knocking on doors is only one of them. Just because someone doesn’t witness the way you do does not mean they are not doing Gods will.
Hi Kevin,
Thanks for your comment. I agree that Mario made many assumptions, and it turns out that they were bad assumptions. I would agree that he committed a sin when he judged me. However, there are times when it’s OK for Christians to judge. Check out this post.
Thanks,
Bill
we as TRUE followers of Jesus can rebuke someone that has sinned or made an incorrect statement. that is why we should work together as one body/one family. conversation with believers and scripture(not watchtower) study is very important. I have a 4 page essay from the N.W.T. explaining the Jehovah/ Jesus dilemma. And I have left the Michael issue out for another time.
Actually, the Mormons have a bigger witnessing agenda than the JWs. Too bad BOTH groups still don’t preach the true Gospel about the real Jesus Christ. Both deny He is God and neither group can offer any real hope for salvation by Christ alone.
they go door to door for fear and works oriented. your statement is foolish and I visit all my neighbors. JOHN 3:3
JESUS IS ALIVE IS GOD IN THE FLESH. :) AMEN.
John 3:3
King James Version (KJV)
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
if you have read these entries above.. WE HAVE!! Confess with your tongue Jesus is (your) LORD. Believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead and you will be saved. ROM 10:9. The followers of Jesus do love and care. Witnesses are taught they must earn their salvation. I have some that are family and some that are personal friends
Because you have to earn your spot in the 144000.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians+2%3A8-9&version=KJV
Well, no, JWs are most certainly NOT the only ones witnessing door to door. My church, an IFB church, does this every day.
“Your comment is awaiting moderation.” (I hope you have the courage to publish my comment) Thank you.
Mario,
I agree that most Christians are completely disobedient to the Great Commission, and it makes me wonder whether they’re Christians at all. This blog is dedicated to encouraging Christians to witness. Feel free to check out the other posts. You’ll see that I try to be obedient to the Great Commission. I definitely admire the courage of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I’m sure most people aren’t very nice.
Whenever someone posts a comment for the first time, it always says the comment is awaiting moderation. I suppose there’s somewhere I could change the settings, but I haven’t taken the time to look. Whatever comments you post will show up automatically from now on.
Do you have something specific you disagree with in this post?
Going door to door isn’t obeying the Great Commission. Sure some people do it and I think it’s great. JW’s just do it to win people to come to their church so that THEY themselves can go to heaven. They don’t care about who lives at that house they’re knocking on. They just want to go to heaven. They don’t give a rip about the person. My bible tells me to make disciples. That means that whoever I lead to Christ, I am going to disciple them until the day I die.
Hi Colin,
You said, “My bible tells me to make disciples. That means that whoever I lead to Christ, I am going to disciple them until the day I die.”
I’d have to say I disagree. To make a disciple is one of the elements of the Great Commission, along with teaching. A person who is a brand new Christian is a disciple. To make a disciple means to give someone the gospel.
Jesus wasn’t being repetitive when he said teach them to obey all His commands. The teaching portion of the Great Commission is distinct from the make disciples portion.
Thanks,
bill
Mario Sicilia, just because they do it door to door, any where, any time, does not change the fact that they are incorrect. Even the muslims do that sometimes! The point of this article is to “prove” that Jesus is the Lord.
Yes, he mentioned about the holy father, but if you read the bible carefully he also mentioned “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30).
Sorry, in addition to the last comment on the same subject, I would like to add a few things for Mario Sicilia, Please read http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/jw.htm
You will then know what JW is all about. Thank you.
What you have presented might be something new to some but I’ve been now a baptized witnesses for 40 years this June and can read both the Hebrew and Greek and quite frankly fail to see any Bible verse you’ve presented that proves that Jesus is equal to his Almighty Father. Jesus is the Son of the Father. Theos Greek for god is applied to both the Father, the Father’s Son (Jesus) and to certain men, and to angels. So what do our lexicon agree as to what “theos”, “elohim” or “el” really is? Look it up, it’s not what you’re trying to make it out to be.
Likewise, it seems that your understanding of the Hebrew mal·’akh′ and the Greek ag′ge·los litterally mean, otherwise your comments would differ.
Sorry, but most people know that we Jehovah’s Witnesses know our Bibles and know why Almighty God’s name has been removed from most book store Bibles.
Please show me one place in the Bible where Almight God Jehovah is subject to someone else and I’ll show you 10 where Jesus is subject (lesser) to his Father. Show me one place in the Bible where Jehovah God has a God, and I’ll show you that Jesus says he has a God several times. Show me one place where Jesus tells us to pray to him and I’ll show you that he repeated tells us to pray only to the Father. Note John 17:3 . “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.” So, who is the only true God? and who’s the one he sent forth?
We’re not blinded as to who Almighty God is, and who the Son is. I have yet to find a single error in the NWT of the Holy Scriptures but I’m sure there’s some but give me your choice of translations and I’ll translate for you from the Hebrew or Greek into English what it should be of many specific errors. NIV, AS, KJ, New Jerusalem, NASB, RS, Youngs of the hundreds.
Tara
Yes, the JWs know THEIR bible because it was written by Charles Russell. This is not the Word of God inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Tara,
Thanks for your comment.
First of all, Jesus is equal to the Father. He became flesh, and took on the limitations of a human (Hebrews 2:17-18). A wife is supposed to submit to her husband, but this doesn’t make her inferior. She is absolutely equal to her husband, but she has a God-given role to play out.
So, maybe you can start at the top of the table. How does Jehovah call Himself the Alpha and Omega, and then Jesus call Himself Alpha and Omega? If Jesus isn’t God, why isn’t this blasphemy?
Also, I was curious about your polytheism? How do you reconcile that with all of the verses that say there is only one God (Deuteronomy 6:4, Isaiah 44:6, Galatians 3:20, etc.). Just for my own interest, would you consider yourself to be a good person? Would you say that you’re born-again?
Thanks,
Bill
actually it is. but witnesses are taught its all about Jehovah. a word created from the old test. original text YHWH, sometimes pronounced “Yaway”. whereas, true Christians are taught,” It’s all about JESUS”
I’m sorry to dissapoint you Tara, but did you actually see (in person) that the NWT was authentically translated from the Greek or … Hebrew perhaps? The point is, how can YOU be sure that the translation wasn’t corrupted?. If you read the link that I gave Mr. Mario Sicilia on my last comment, you will know the story of how it all began (The Watchtower).
My suggestion is, before you start believing into something, do a research first.
The Watchtower has predicted the end of the world for 1914, 1918, 1925, 1975, and 1989. Jesus himself in fact didn’t even know for sure when the world would end! Only his father in heaven does.
Have you ever read “Millions Now Living Will Never Die”, published by The Watchtower on July 15, 1924? On page 89 it said:
“The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in the Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914. We may confidently expect that 1925 will mark the return of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and the faithful prophets of old…to the condition of human perfection”
That was a false prophecy!
If being a Jehovah’s Witness is the only way to an earthy paradise, what would the men who lived before 1884 become? The Watchtower didnt even exist that time! I’d say poor on them.
Acts 13:25 – And as John fulfilled his course, he said, Whom think ye that I am? I am not he. But, behold, there cometh one after me, whose shoes of his feet I am not worthy to loose.
How can we, ordinary men have the privilege to mention God’s name (in this case: Jehovah) ?
Thank you.
Oh man there are so many things I need to write but I didn’t dare to make this beautiful blog look ugly : ) but I really can’t help it. Sorry Mr. Bill Philips. I really love this blog!
People need to start learning to understand the meaning of Trinity. It is the basic thing of how to understand Jesus, and His Father who sent him.
They are equal! One. Uno.
When Jesus came to earth, he took form of a human. Would you expect that God himself who came to earth and speak to His own creations?
Acts 9:3 – And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
Acts 9:4 – And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Acts 9:5 – And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Acts 9:6 – And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
If you analyze from those verses carefully the light that shined around Saul from heaven was Jesus! And Saul asked who are you LORD?
If Jesus was an ordinary man, or a prophet, or whatever it is you think he was in the form of flesh and blood, he surely couldn’t be that light who spoke from heaven!
If you say Jesus is Michael (the Archangel, or may be the other Michael which I’m not very sure of) there are ZERO verses that says that. Deuteronomy 10:17 – Jesus is Lord of Lords. And Michael obviously is not.
1 Corinthians 6:3 – Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
This verse concludes that Jesus is not an angel, the Archangel, or any form of angels. We don’t judge Jesus, or maybe you think we will?
This is ridiculous. That are so many verses that lead Jesus to equal as His Father but the JW just don’t want to see it.
John 10:25 – Jesus answered, “I have already told you, but you would not believe me. The deeds I do by my Father’s authority speak on my behalf;
10:26 – but you will not believe, for you are not my sheep.
10:27 – My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
10:28 – I give them eternal life, and they shall never die. No one can snatch them away from me.
10:29 – What my Father has given me is greater than everything, and no one can snatch them away from the Father’s care.
10:30 – The Father and I are one.”
10:31 – Then the people again picked up stones to throw at him.
10:32 – Jesus said to them, “I have done many good deeds in your presence which the Father gave me to do; for which one of these do you want to stone me?”
10:33 – They answered, “We do not want to stone you because of any good deeds, but because of your blasphemy! You are only a man, but you are trying to make yourself God!”
10:34 – Jesus answered, “It is written in your own Law that God said, ‘You are gods.’
10:35 – We know that what the scripture says is true forever; and God called those people gods, the people to whom his message was given.
10:36 – As for me, the Father chose me and sent me into the world. How, then, can you say that I blaspheme because I said that I am the Son of God?
10:37 – Do not believe me, then, if I am not doing the things my Father wants me to do.
10:38 – But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, you should at least believe my deeds, in order that you may know once and for all that the Father is in me and that I am in the Father.”
Take a special look on the 10:30 and the 10:38 !
Jesus always spoke on his father’s behalf because he was a man. If you don’t want to believe this fact that means you are similar to the persons who had wanted to stone Jesus! And need I to remind you that God does not like that at all?
No one actually knows or have the CERTAINTY what the word Jehovah really means. It is an ancient word spoken only by holy prophets, and we definitely are not holy.
book of hebrews chapter 1 verses 8 to 12
the heading of the chapter is “The Son Exalted Above Angels”
it’s the Lord our God the Father talking to Jesus Christ.
8 But to the Son He says:
“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”[g]
10 And:
“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”[h]
A little add-on to what Jestia had said, hopefully this will bring back Tara. We love you Tara!
John
14:4 – You know the way that leads to the place where I am going.”
14:5 – Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going; so how can we know the way to get there?”
14:6 – Jesus answered him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no one goes to the Father except by me.
14:7 – Now that you have known me,” he said to them, “you will know my Father also, and from now on you do know him and you have seen him.”
14:8 – Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father; that is all we need.”
14:9 – Jesus answered, “For a long time I have been with you all; yet you do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. Why, then, do you say, ‘Show us the Father’?
This is a very intersting dialogue. I recently wrote about witnessing to a “Witness.” If you are interested you can check it out at
http://www.morefire.wordpress.com
God bless!
[…] Witnesses’ Polytheism I questioned whether Jehovah’s Witnesses are polytheists in a previous post, and the more I’ve thought about it, the more pivotal I believe that question is. Their version […]
actually their scripture rebukes and accepts polytheism. witnesses are not encouraged to study only the N.W.T. they are taught that only the watchtower can discern the scripture accurately.
[…] by healtheland on August 3rd, 2007 From Proving to Jehovah’s Witnesses that Jesus is God from […]
I just know,that JV. have their own beliefs. I don’t like to be pushed into their religion. I have had many advertisesment on my door. I just take them,after the people leave and throw them away. They don’t understand,what no solicting is? I think they are rude. Also,how would they like it,if i pushed my religion on them?? It mentions they are really against homosexuality. And think it is a very bad sin. Let them think that, cause i believe differently. I am not a homophobic like they are,or any other religion. JV. just makes me dislike them. Their ignorant.
That list of scriptures and the applied to Jehovah – applied to Jesus, is meaningless. That is not how it works. Titles do not prove identity.
You leave out the important part.
Heb 9:11 and 9:24 say that Christ came as high priest to appear before the person of God. Thus that is definite proof that Jesus is not Jehovah. Jehovah does not appear before himself. The purpose of a high priest is to bridge the gap between Jehovah God and sinful man by someone who is neither.
Thus your belief that Jesus is Jehovah God denies salvation because it does the high priesthood of Jesus.
Why do people focus so much on whether Jesus is Michael?
People argue against that not because Jesus is not Michael, but that if he is, then his is not God. Thus they are not looking at it independently.
If Jesus is not Michael it is no big deal.
Sorry,if i had put them down,like this. I just feel like the ones,i met push their religion,on people who have a different religion. I have neighbors,next door,and they seem to hide and do not want to be neighborly,i have tryed many times to talk with them. They seem to not want to be bothered.
Steve,
Thanks for your comment.
Why do you believe that the list of titles is meaningless? If Jesus calls Himself the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, which are names Jehovah has reserved for Himself, He is claiming to be one with God.
I’m saying there is one God. The Father is God. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God.
How many gods do you believe there are? Are you born again?
Thanks,
Bill
Deb,
Thanks for your comments. What is your religious background? If you’re a Christian would you say you’re born again?
Thanks,
Bill
I believe that this world is totally mixed up, simply because we have this bible, and that bible, the koran, and everyone is believing what they were brought up to believe. The Holy bible says that jesus is the son of God a part of God that humbled himself in spirit to save the life of man. When jesus told the disciples when asked who to say sent them he said I AM, God is the great I AM. He also said that no one comes to the father but by me, understand that he and his father are one. And the gentleman that said when christ appeared to the man of God so that proves that jesus is not God, you need to study your bible or read a little more into the passage, He came as a high priest not of this world by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, meaning his passing through the heavens into the heavenly tabernacle to appear in the holy of holies there for us.
Thanks for all of your comments.
My heart cries out for those who profess to be Jehovah’s Witnesses on here. Jesus said that He came that the world would be saved through Him (John 3:17). He wants no one to perish.
I am sure you who profess to be Jehovah’s Witnesses are committed sincerely to what you have been taught by the Watchtower Tract Society and believe it to be truth. However, it is not. Jesus IS the great I AM. He IS God manifested in the flesh. How great and awesome it is that God the Father (Yahweh, Jehovah) would make a way for sinful man to be reconciled to Himself! He did this by manifesting Himself in the flesh and humbling Himself to the point of death (Phil 2:5-11). This is not something that I can readily wrap my mind around as a human being, how God would choose to also become man for us, but I believe it by faith to be true. And this is the truth that gives eternal life.
God’s Word is true and the way of the cross is narrow. “Jesus said, I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through Me.” (John 14:6).
Again…Jesus was God manifested in the flesh, the second person of the “trinity”. God the Father sent Jesus “that the world might be saved through Him” (John 3:17). When Jesus ascended to heaven, where He is now seated at the right hand of the Father, He promised and left the Holy Spirit (John 14:26) within those who have believed in Him to continue to carry out His ministry here on earth (Matthew 28), which is to preach the message of salvation through Jesus Christ. Any other message that does not teach this truth is indeed “another gospel”. Any other message that depicts Jesus as anyone other than God manifested in the flesh/God the Son (i.e. “Jesus was just a good man/teacher”; “Jesus was just a prophet”; “Jesus is not the only way to God/heaven”; “Jesus is not God”; “Jesus is not equal to God”) is preaching “another Jesus” and NOT Jesus the Christ, the Anointed One, the Messiah prophesied about in the Old Testament (Isaiah 6; Isaiah 9; Isaiah 53, etc.). Any and all such messages are damnable heresies that should be both rejected and spoken AGAINST by those of us who have been entrusted by God’s grace with the Truth.
Please read and understand Bible verses in context. Jesus would not have been hated and killed if He was not proclaiming that He was equal with God (“I and the Father are one”). The same way those who heard Him make this statement picked up stones to throw at Him when He said it, is the same way that those who profess to be Jehovah’s Witnesses seem to respond to the CONTINUED preaching of the true gospel message that Jesus “…and the Father are one…” (i.e. Jesus is God/is equal with God). If that statement is not true, then Jesus lied. Of course, as the Only True and Living God, He did not. His name was Immanuel, which means “GOD with us”.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are aware that both the Father and Son have titles that are common to both. They also realize that these titles have different meanings. For example:
Both Husbands? Yes.
Jesus is married to the church, his Father Jehovah to Jerusalem Above.
Both Masters? Yes.
Jehovah is Grand Master he has placed his 1st born Son Jesus in charge over his slaves (servents) as in a household with servents, if the owner decides to put in 1st born over his servents…the owners Son is also their master. Also they must show the young master the same respect they would his father, their Grand Master.
Many Christians sincerely believe they are saved by God’s grace but are not. Find out why @ http://www.geocities.com/howtorecognizeafalsechurch
TM,
Thanks for your comment. I hope we can start a conversation, as many other Jehovah’s Witnesses that have commented seem uninterested in continuing.
Maybe you should take a look at a few of those verses I cited. Jesus is claiming to be the Alpha and Omega, First and Last, Lord of Lords, etc. not just borrowing a title. Besides that, the title He’s taking would be equivalent to “grand master”. Also, Grand Master may be a name for God in the New World Translation, but it isn’t found in any version I’ve looked in. Making up a new name for God is risky territory at best.
Also, I only believe there is one true God. The Bible talks about other gods, but they are false gods, such as idols and demons. So, who do you believe Jesus is?
I certainly agree that Christians must produce fruit as proof that they’re saved, but salvation is by grace alone, according to the Bible. Take a look at these: Matthew 26:28 says we’re saved by Jesus blood; Acts 10:43 Belief; Acts 16:31 Belief; Luke 7:50 Faith; Acts 13:38-39 Belief; Galatians 3:26 Belief; Galatians 2:20-21 Faith; John 3:14-18 Belief; John 3:36 Belief. I’d be interested in hearing why you don’t believe those. I have a couple dozen more if you’re interested.
Thanks,
Bill
To: Jehovah’s Witnesses
I’m starting to notice a pattern with Jehovah’s Witnesses. You will post a comment, and never check back. This leaves me looking stupid as I’m asking someone questions who apparently has no intention of ever answering them.
The whole purpose of this blog is to have discussions with people of all stripes about the Bible. If you want to leave a comment pointing out how I’m all wrong, I would ask you to please check back to continue the discussion.
You are more than welcome here, and I hope to have a nice discussion with you.
Thanks,
Bill
Bill, there are many gods in heaven but only one is Almighty. Jehovah’s Witnesses worship only the Father, Almighty God. The common gods, Jesus included, are not worshiped. Jesus is worshiped as king by Jehovah’s Witnesses but not as God.
Note: Jesus in the book of Daniel is called a Mighty God. The “G” in God is capitalized because it is a title name. All title names must be in capital.
Jesus is inferior to Jehovah is Father in; time, knowledge, position, and power. The Bible says the head of the woman is the man…what part of the head of the Christ is God(Jehovah) do you not understand?
At Ps 100:3 it says, “Know that Jehovah is God. It is he that has made us and not we ourselves….” If Jehovah is God and Jesus is God’s Son, what does that mean? To Jehovah’s Witnesses it means Jesus is Jehovah’s Son.
Note: In your bible God’s name (YHWH) was removed and replaced with Lord and God.
Another thing, What is God’s name? Jehovah (Ps 100:3). Are all three called Jehovah? No, just one, the Father. So then what is the personal name of your triune God? The name of the true God is Jehovah–which is the name of the Father ALONE. What is the personal name of your triune God?
To your comment on the title Grand Master– “His grand master.” Heb., Adho.nav, pl. of a.dhohn, evidently to denote excellence.
There are many similarities between JWs and Christians, but there are far too many differences. The NWT falsely translates John 1:1 from “and the Word was God” to “and the Word was a god.” No Bible scholar or linguist would ever translate this verse in this manner, thus the JW’s agenda to co-opt scripture for the advancement of the doctrine is clearly seen in this passage. Yeshua is Yahweh (i.e. Jesus is Jehovah). There is no place in scripture where Jesus is stated as being Michael, yet JWs hold fast to this false doctrine. Jesus is called Immanuel, which means “God is with us.” Immanuel does not mean “A god is with us.”
In the KJV, the names of God were replaced by various terms. Jehovah is often replaced with LORD. Adonai is replaced with Lord. El Shaddai is replaced with Almighty God. Yet it remains consistent throughout scripture.
http://morefire.wordpress.com/2007/07/05/witnessing-to-a-witness/
TM,
In your bible, YHWH was replaced with Jehovah. We have no idea what the vowels are in YHWH, or how it was pronounced.
Please take a look at Revelation 1:11, 1:17-18, 21:6, 22:13. Jesus claims to be the First and the Last, Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. He’s not just borrowing the Father’s title. He is claiming to be those things. Compare that with Revelation 1:8. The Alpha and Omega is the Almighty.
There is one true God, and plenty of false gods. Satan is referred to as a god (2 Corinthians 4:4), idols (Isaiah 42:17), humans with false god status (Psalm 82:6-7). In saying that there are lesser gods, you become a polytheist, regardless of whether you worship them. Just holding that other gods exist makes you a polytheist. Much like Hindus who have 300 million gods, with greather gods that receive worship, and lesser gods that don’t. There is one true God–the Father, Son and Holy Spirit–whose personal name is YHWH.
Ephesians 2:8-10 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.”
If God saving us starts a fire, the result should be smoke. Smoke is good deeds, baptism, etc. We don’t provide smoke hoping God will give us fire. Smoke results naturally from fire. If someone is going around talking about their fire, but has no smoke, you know they don’t really have a fire. They can talk all they want about their fire, but you know they’re hypocrites. Does that make sense?
Thank you for checking back and continuing the conversation. I truly enjoy it, and hope that you will, too. I hope you’re not offended by anything I say, but I do appreciate learning what you believe, and why.
Thanks,
Bill
Bill, Christians are judged by their works. Jesus said, “By their fruits you will recognize them.” What fruits? For imitation Christians-by their ungodly actions and unbiblical doctrines you will know them.
Jehovah Witnesses practice righteous works. Works motivated by WRITTEN LAW-they take delight in the law of God, FAITH-they show their faith by their works, and LOVE OF GOD-move them to action.
2. Jehovah is the most recognized English form of God’s name. Jehovah/YHVH refers to the Father only. Because imitation Christians have changed God..their God has no personal name. Some even try to give God a new name…the Almighty Jehovah Jesus.
3. The Bible says their are those that are called gods in heaven. Who are those called gods? They are God’s angelic sons. They are common gods. No common god should receive worship as a god much less as Almighty God. That would be idolatry. Jesus receive worship not because he is a god (in heaven) but because he is a king. Kings receive worship. If you deny there are common gods in heaven you deny the truth.
4. Both Father and Son are called Saviours:
Jehovah is the principal saviour the source of all salvation. His salvation comes through Jesus Christ his Son. In Bible times it was Jehovah who saved the Jews through men such as Moses, Joshua, and Samson. Jehovah raised up many saviours (deliverers) for them. Moses, Joshua, and Samon were only a few.
Both Father and Son are called Kings and Lords.
Jehovah is King of all Kings and Lord of all Lords over all INCLUDING Jesus his Son. Jehovah subjected all things to his Son Jesus with the exception of himself. Jesus is King of Kings and Lord of Lord over all EXCEPT Jehovah his God and Father. The head of the Christ is God (Jehovah). “Blessed be (Jehovah) the God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort.”
This will be my last post. If you would like to know some rotten fruits of false religions go to http://www.geocities.com/howtorecognizeafalsechurch
TM,
You cited zero verses. Even if some of the things you say are true, I have no idea where to look them up.
When Jesus said you will know them by their fruits (Matt 7:16), He wasn’t saying He will determine their salvation by their fruits. He was saying we humans, not knowing the content of their hearts, can judge their fruit.
Buddhists do good works. Atheists do good works. Christians do good works. The question is whether God sees them as good works. Our righteous deeds are like filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6), unless they’re prepared beforehand by God (Ephesians 2:10).
2. Why do you care what the most accepted English pronunciation of YHWH is? You’re willing to let the wicked world determine the pronunciation of God’s personal name?
Whether Jesus is the one true God certainly is an important issue. Are you basing your decision on the Bible, or on a magazine that comes in the mail?
3. I hereby deny the existence of common gods. There is one God. He said before Him no god was formed, nor will there be one after Him (Isaiah 43:10). If I read what you wrote correctly, you said that Jesus received worship (I certainly agree), and that isn’t idolatry, because He is a King. Worshiping any god other than the one God is idolatry. Jesus isn’t just a King worthy of worship; He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Revelation 17:14).
4. What verse says the Father is the King of all Kings and the Lord of all Lords? I have two verses that say Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords (Revelation 17:14, 19:16). How is the Father excluded from Kings and Lords to make those two verses true? What verse says the Father is excluded? You’re trying very hard to change the meaning of those verses, and I would suggest that you just edit those verses out of the next version of the NWT, and this problem will go away, like so many others.
I’m grateful that you wrote a couple more comments. Is it a Jehovah’s Witness rule that you can’t carry on too long of a conversation in this format, or your personal decision?
Thanks,
Bill
Hi Bill,
Your knowledge of the Bible is limited. It is my desicion to not post any more religious truths on your site. Your site is anti-JW. I have decided to heed Jesus’ command not to give what is holy to dogs, or throw my pearls before swines.
If you are truly seeking the truth and your heart is sincere, you will eventually find it. I will stare you in the right direction. The next time Jehovah’s Witnesses knock at your door, listen to them.
TM,
I think the next time they knock at my door, I will discuss their belief in common gods and polytheism, and Jesus’ claim to be the Alpha and Omega, First and Last, Beginning and End, Lord of Lords and King of Kings, as they apparently have no good answer.
I’m not anti JW, however I’m anti JW spending eternity in the lake of fire because they don’t have a Savior. I’m pro JWs going to heaven with me, and I will pray for you.
Thanks,
Bill
Firstly that crack about Witnesses being the only ones that actually go from door to door is a serious misconception. The only reason they’re more visible is simply a brainwashing, mind-control technique well used by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, to get thier poor, deceived followers to generate – get this- in 1998 the WT generated $951 000 000 in revenue, made with free labour. Now one may argue that printing books and preaching to the world is expensive, but hey, look at the cheap recycled paper used to print these “truths” on. Where is all that revenue really going? Since “Kingdom Halls” are built by volenteers and material is supplied by “loyal and descreet” slaves, even the land on which these buildings are built is in many cases donated. C’mon, you wanna tell me there isn’t something fishy going on here? If those so called 144 000 of which 10 of them sit at the WT headquarters, are indeed who they say they are, then I’m afraid, it’s because they say so. Keep an open mind and go to http://www.sixscreensofthewatchtower.com and you be the judge.
Sorry but I seriously also need to add the following. I’m not posting these things up here to be mean to JWs. That’s the last thing on my mind at present. I was actively involved with them for quite a while, so was my wife. She was even baptised and all that. However the red lights started going on when I noticed what people so unmovingly believed in and what they actually practiced did not coincide, was a sure indicator that these folks are being very successfully steered around like drones. I noticed that no matter how much doubt a Witness has in what they believe in, the longer they are in the “truth” the harder it seems for them to let go. It becomes an ingrain way of life which immediately leads to depression and self resentment once the person tries to let go. What kind of a god would enslave people to such a painfull way? I don’t believe our God would ever do that to anyone. We are immediately labled “apostates” as soon as we see something the others simply can’t or refuse to. This all Witnesses have been taught from the onset. It’s even harder for their kids to let go since they are taught this way of life from birth. Totally incapable of making up their own minds by the time they reach maturity. It’s frustrating to see these folks let their already programmed lives make it close to impossible for them to think out side of the box. Believe me, a person in that state is very hard to get to, no matter how logical your approach may be. I know. I was there too once, this is why I used the term “close” to impossible, not entirely :) Where there’s hope there’s freedom.
Julian,
Thanks for your comment. I’ve barely scratched the surface of the website, and it’s very good.
Thanks,
Bill
Oh it’s good alright Bill. What does bother me very much about the JW’s organisation is the fact that they so similarly operate the way the Free Masons do. But I still have loads of info in my arsenal which I think could help those trapped in thier way of life. This is a good site you have running here. And it felt good to share a bit of my own experiences.
God bless
Julian
Someone wrote:
“At Ps 100:3 it says, “Know that Jehovah is God. It is he that has made us and not we ourselves….” If Jehovah is God and Jesus is God’s Son, what does that mean? To Jehovah’s Witnesses it means Jesus is Jehovah’s Son.”
I think the error here is that the Father is not Yahweh; the Son is Yahweh. The Son is the Logos, sent by the Father, who in the writings of Philo of Alexandria is the High God. Philo says that in addition to the High God, there is a “second God,” the Logos who created the world. The key to understanding the early Christian view of Jesus is that he was Yahweh, the God of Israel, come to save his people. Early Christians saw Jesus as the “Angel of Yahweh” of the Old Testament, the manifestation of Yahweh to the people, and in the New Testament, every tongue is to confess that Jesus is LORD. “LORD” of course, is the NT equivalent term, when so used, for YAHWEH in the Old Testament, for which pious Jews substituted “Adonai,” “Lord” in Hebrew. When Mark speaks of preparing the way of THE LORD, it is referencing Isaiah, which speaks of preparing the way of YAHWEH. And of course, who then comes? Jesus.
If one understands the relationship between God the Father (the High God, “El Elyon” and the Son (the “second God,” Yahweh, the Logos and creator), then much in the New Testament and early Christianity becomes clear. Even Justin, in his dialogue with Trypho, repeats this notion that Jesus is the “other” God, the second God. Early Christians did not speak of or use the term “Trinity,” but they understood the relationship between the primary and secondary gods, the second being an emanation of the first, the Son and so GOD/DIVINE by nature.
That is the explanation of the often battled-over distinctions made in the Greek of John 1:1: “In the beginning was the Logos and the Logos was with THE GOD (God the Father, the “High God,” and THEOS (“divine,” GOD by nature, THEOS without the article) was the Logos.
The root of the problem most Christians have in understanding the Christology of the New Testament is that they make the fundamental error of confusing Yahweh with the Father. But to early Christians THE FATHER WAS NOT YAHWEH. Yahweh was the Son, the Logos, the “image of the invisible God (the Father). Start reading the New Testament with this understanding, and suddenly things begin, at last, to make sense.
Hokku,
The Bible makes it clear that there is only one God (Deut. 6:4, Isaiah 43:10, 44:6, 1 Corinthians 8:4-6). I don’t want to assume anything, or read into your writing, but if you believe in more than one god, that is polytheism, and is incorrect.
I would agree that Jesus is Yahweh/Jehovah. The Father is also Jehovah, and the Holy Spirit is Jehovah. There is no other God besides Jehovah (Isaiah 43:10-11). The Alpha and Omega (Jesus) is the Almighty (Revelation 1:8).
Thanks for your comment.
Bill
Obviously Judaism in the time of Philo was not strictly monotheistic as it is understood today; nor was the Christianity of Justin Martyr. Both believed the Logos was creator, but not the High God. Both believed the Logos was Divine, but not the Father. It is this distinction that not only explains John 1:1, but a great deal else in the New Testament and in early Christianity. It is an identity of nature (the Logos is an emanation of the Father) but not of person. That is why early Christians considered the oOld Testament appearances of the “Angel of Yahweh” to be appearances of Jesus. Yahweh was the God of Israel in the Old Testament. Other nations had their own assigned gods, the sons of El Elyon, originally. In the New Testament, Yahweh comes to save his people. The Father is not the one who comes. The Father is not Yahweh. Yahweh is sent by the Father.
The entire Bible is clearly monotheistic. There are dozens of verses. If there is something you’re reading, such as Philo, that contradicts the Bible, you can know for certain that it is wrong. The New Testament agrees with the Old Testament. There is only one God.
“You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.” (Isaiah 43:10-11).
“This is what the LORD says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.” (Isaiah 44:6)
Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.” (Isaiah 44:8).
I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me, so that from the rising of the sun to the place of its setting men may know there is none besides me. I am the LORD, and there is no other. (Isaiah 45:5-6).
“Remember this, fix it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels. Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.” (Isaiah 46:8-9).
I don’t know how much clearer God can be on this topic.
Thanks,
Bill
billphillips Says:
“The entire Bible is clearly monotheistic.”
The supposed monotheism of the Bible (in specific the Old Testament), is actually the result of a later revisionism that tried to eliminate the henotheism of the early texts. Even in Genesis we have evidence of more than one divine being. Elohim created the heavens and the earth. Elohim (usually explained away as a supposed “plural of majesty” literally means “GODS.” It is a Hebrew plural form. Continuing on, we find the words “Let US make man in OUR image.” Again plural. The Old Testament shows us that originally there was a Heavenly Court, with the High God, El Elyon, and his sons, one of whom was YAHWEH.
Interestingly, we can see the revisionism at work simply by examining two versions of Deuteronomy 32:8
In the Septuagint text, considered superior at this point by the RSV, we read:
“When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of men, He fixed the bounds of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.” In the Masoretic text, “Sons of God” has been changed to “Sons of Israel,” an obvious revision to remove the reference to multiple heavenly beings and replace it with something less offensive to later theology. Deuteronomy 32:9 then tells us that Yahweh’s part of the division of territories was Israel. Yahweh was assigned to be the god of Israel. Of course other territories were each assigned their own “Son of God,” their own national deity. In early OT theology this was simply understood; different nations had different Gods, but Israel was to worship Yahweh. Later that was all changed, and we see the effects in revisions to the Old Testament and its understanding. But traces of the original multi-deity theology are still there and still obvious. This, incidentally, is quite in keeping with what we know archeologically of worship in the early area of the Near East.
Hokku,
God created the world, but He’s unable to get us a reliable book in 2007?
You’re misunderstanding many of those examples, and having a proper understanding the Trinity would help out tremendously.
Are you born again? What religion/denomination do you belong to?
Thanks,
Bill
billphillips said:
“God created the world, but He’s unable to get us a reliable book in 2007?”
Apparently, because if you read any good Bible translation, you will find that there are a great many alternate readings — places where it is uncertain just what the original text said. Look, for example, at the end of Mark, which gives the story of post resurrection appearances of Jesus. It is a later addition, not found in the earliest and best manuscripts, which end the story with the running of the frightened women from the tomb, who say nothing about what they have supposedly seen.
A number of these uncertain (and therefore unreliable) readings have to do specifically with the “deity” of Jesus — Whether he can be considered “God” or not.
And of course not only are there other important uncertainties in places like supposed prophecies of Jesus. The words “they pierced my hands and my feet” in the Old Testament are actually, in the Hebrew, so corrupt that no one knows what they originally said. In the Hebrew text they read “like a lion my hands and my feet.”
Going further, the Dead Sea Scrolls, earlier than the Masoretic text from which the OT is generally translated, actually give us two quite different lengths for the book of Jeremiah! There is a longer version and a shorter version!
Even the books included in the Bible change according to when in history we look at it. There were books included in early Bibles that are not included today. There were books that some Christian communities accepted, while other communities rejected them. Some thought the Gospel of John was written by a Gnostic; some thought Revelation was heretical. And of course even today scholars tell us that a number of the books in the Bible were not written by those whose names are on them.
And, of course, there are differences in translation. Does Genesis say “When God began to create the heavens and the earth, the earth being formless and empty,” or does it say “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth”? Some Bibles use the former, some the latter, because they Hebrew text, being originally without vowel points IS UNCERTAIN. Does 2 Timothy 3:16 say that “all scripture is inspired by God” or does it say, “every inspired scripture”? It all depends on the translation, because as it stands, the text is uncertain. And there are many, many more examples that could be given.
Reliable in 2007? Definitely not.
Hokku,
Would you consider yourself to be a good person? Are you born again?
Thanks,
Bill
billphillips Says:
“Would you consider yourself to be a good person? Are you born again?”
Completely irrelevant to the discussion. I have known lots of claimed “born again” people who are basically the same as they were before, just with different beliefs. So that is not the issue. Nor is whether one is “good” or “not good,” in addition to which that depends on definition. Is a tribe that slaughters its neighbors, as God told the Israelites to do in the OT, “good”? Not in my definition.
The issue is really whether the Bible, which is the source of Christian doctrine, is historically and factually reliable and trustworthy and correct. In my view it is none of those, and I think the evidence easily bears that out.
That means we not only read the Bible critically, as we would any book (one hopes), but we also try to determine just what it is the writers believed at the period in which the book was written. The OT reveals periods of both poytheism (or henotheism) and monotheism, and we can still see the stitches were these two views were sewn together. That is why in the NT, it is premature to talk about a “Trinity,” but we can nonetheless see that in texts such as “John,” Jesus is depicted as the Logos, the incarnation of the “second God” of Israel, spoken of both in Philo of Alexandria and in the writings of Justin Martyr. Read from the point of view that Jesus is Yahweh, “divine” but not the Father, and much not only in John but in Revelation becomes clear. Later this doctrine was obscured, and people began to mistakenly think that the “Father” was Yahweh, which confused Christians and still confuses them to no end.
It is this view that makes both many “traditional” Christians and “Jehovah’s Witnesses extremes both incorrect and untenable. Many Christians think the Father is Yahweh and Jesus is Yahweh. Jehovah’s Witnesses think Yahweh is the Father and Jesus is not, but rather only an angel (“angel is one of the terms for Jesus, but early Christians considered him the “Angel of Yahweh” of the OT — the manifestation of Yahweh in visible form.)
Of course all of this is just academic, and is like discussing how many angels, in theory, can dance on the point of a pin. It has nothing to do with reality, but does give us a better understanding of the biblical texts and what early Christians actually believed (and incidentally, they did not all believe the same things).
Hokku,
Whether you’re born again is an extremely important question. A lot of people give me dirty looks when I suggest such a thing, because they would never want to associate themselves with a bunch of nutcase born-againers. You refuse to give me a straight answer, so I assume you’re not. You’re unable to discern spiritual things, because the carnal mind can’t understand them (1 Corinthians 2:14).
Jesus said we can’t go to heaven unless we’re born again (John 3:3). This concept is throughout the New Testament. Whether you consider yourself to be a good person is also important. If you’re morally good you can go to heaven without Jesus’ sacrifice. However, if you’re like the rest of us, you’re an evil sinner, born an enemy of God (Colossians 1:21), dead in your transgressions (Ephesians 2:1), and your heart is desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9).
You can use your desperately wicked heart and stand in judgment over the Bible if you wish, but it’s not going to work out for you. The Bible stands in judgment over you. If you’ve ever told a lie, you’ve broken God’s law. You’re a lawbreaker, and a liar, and all liars will have their part in the lake of fire (Revelation 21:8).
“Remember this, fix it in mind, take it to heart, you rebels. Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me” (Isaiah 46:8-9).
Thanks,
Bill
Again, you are missing the point.
You wrote:
“You’re unable to discern spiritual things, because the carnal mind can’t understand them (1 Corinthians 2:14).”
All those “spiritual things” you talk about are rooted in the Bible. The Bible is the fundamental issue. If it is flawed, then it is all flawed. And of course obviously Christians are not able “to discern spiritual things,” because they cannot even agree on such basics as whether Jesus is God or not, or whether the world was created in seven 24-hour days, or whether children must be baptized, or whether the Lord’s Supper is the real body and blood of Jesus or a symbol.
But this is nothing new. Christians have been disagreeing since the time of Paul, who bickered with other Christians over who had the “true” teaching, and the same happened when Luther raised his principle of Sola Scriptura, “Scripture alone,” because Luther immediately found out that when OTHER people began to read the Bible, they understood it differently, and so Protestantism begin almost immediately by splitting into disagreeing sects who were obviously not able to “discern spiritual things” either.
As Mark Twain wrote,
“Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion–several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn’t straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother’s path to happiness and heaven….”
With at last count 38,000 plus Christian sects, obviously their ability to “discern spiritual things” is not functioning as advertised.
I agree with Bill on this. Are you born from above or not? Sorry this thread is so old but I need to reply about this in 2012.
Hokku,
There are Catholics who place the tradition of men over the Bible. They don’t trust the Bible, so they have a different religion. The Mormons have 3 extra books of scripture that disagree with the Bible. The JWs have a horrible translation of the Bible, and can’t read the Bible without a Watchtower magazine. Don’t lump born again Christians in with cults.
Born again Christians can disagree on issues such as baptism and tongues and hymns or rock music. They can choose to go to church in different buildings. They can’t and don’t disagree on:
1. Jesus being fully God and fully man
2. The Gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus
3. There being only one God
4. salvation is by grace through faith
5. Jesus rose from the dead physically
If someone doesn’t pass that test, they usually won’t even claim to be born again.
Every question you have can be answered with the Bible. Throw Philo away. Seek your answers in the Bible. You will give an account on Judgment Day for every sin you’ve ever committed. You must be born again. Figure out what Jesus meant by that and do it.
Thanks,
Bill
Again, you are not looking square at the problem.
You say ” Seek your answers in the Bible. ” That is not a solution. The Bible has no real answers. It just raises lots of questions, which Christians have a great deal of trouble answering sensibly.
But I can see this is not going anywhere, so no point in my commenting further on this issue. Thanks for the space.
all scripture is beneficial for teaching and reproving…Without the word of God we are all drifting with the wind, so I say thye Bible is of utmost importance, and that’s why the JW’S are in so m,uch confusion. I’m an EX-JW and my purpose is to expose flase teachings. The truth is really that important.
Thanks for your comments Bruce.
The Bible doesn’t have answers for you, because your mind has been blinded by Satan (2 Corinthians 4:4). Repent and put your faith in Jesus (Mark 1:15).
Thanks for the conversation.
Bill
[…] there are many ways to show them Jesus is God using even their Bible. I gave a few examples in a previous post, but here are a few […]
[Robert wrote a comment citing the instances where Jesus prayed, and said this is proof that He isn’t God. As it’s been more than a week since Robert’s comment, and he never wrote back, I have deleted his comment. I do this in hopes that it will encourage others who wish to start a debate to actually continue the debate.]
Robert,
Thanks for your comment. I look forward to your thoughts on my reply (preferably without the condescension).
1. People can pray to whoever/whatever they want. If they’re not praying to the one true God, this would be idolatry.
2. Only God should be prayed to.
Jesus is prayed to in: Acts 7:55-60; Psalm 116:4 and Zech. 13:9 with 1 Cor. 1:1-2. In John 14:14, Jesus says, “If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.” Do you not ask Jesus for things in His name? If you do, is this idolatry? If you don’t, why not?
In 1 Cor. 1:9 it says, “God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.” How can we have fellowship with someone we never talk to? Do you have fellowship with Jesus? Do you have fellowship with the Holy Spirit (2 Corinthians 13:14)?
Jesus submitted Himself to coming to earth and living lower than the angels for a time(Hebrews 2:7), and under the law (Galatians 4:4). He kept the law perfectly, including praying to and submitting Himself to the Father.
I assume you’re a Jehovah’s Witness. Am I correct? I keep asking you guys whether you are born again, so I hope you will answer that question.
Thanks,
Bill
You wrote:
1. Jesus being fully God and fully man
2. The Gospel is the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus
3. There being only one God
4. salvation is by grace through faith
5. Jesus rose from the dead physically.
That is largely a Protestant creation. Early Christians held varying viewpoints on these topics.
Your item one is the result of the Church creeds of the 4th century.
Item two is open to opinion, giving that Mark begins, “The good news of Jesus Christ, as it is written in the prophets, behold I send my messenger before your face, who shall prepare your way before you.” That seems to indicate there was more to the “gospel” than your #2.
That there was “only one God” also was dependent on opinion, because of course Jews who held to the Hebrew Scriptures such as Philo believed there was a “second God,” the emanation of the first, and not only Justin Martyr but also the Gospel of John agree.
As for salvation by grace through faith, that was fine if one was a Pauline Christian, but other Christians, such as the author of James, disagreed. Faith by itself was not enough — faith without works was dead.
Did Jesus rise “physically.” Well, it all depends on how one understands resurrection. Paul thought Jesus rose, but not in a physical body, but rather a “spiritual” body (flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven). So Paul did not really need an empty tomb, and nowhere mentions one.
Christianity never really was a single, monolithic belief, but from the beginnings Christians differed on various topics, thus the constant bickering of Paul with other groups that disagreed with his version of Christianity — including the church in Jerusalem.
Hokku,
1. I think you agree that Jesus is God. 1 John 4:2-3 says, “This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.”
2. The Gospel is defined in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. The verse you cited from Mark contains no contradictory definition. Galatians 1:8-9 says there is only one Gospel that will work for us.
3. Isaiah 46:8-9 makes it clear that we must believe in only one God. I wrote a post a week or two ago with dozens of verses from beginning to end (including the book of John), that say there is only one God. You can reject the Bible if you like, but you can’t pretend it’s anything other than strictly monotheistic.
4. There are two ways to get to heaven. One is to be perfect, thereby earning heaven. One is to go through Jesus. Jesus is the one that made it clear that this is a gift that can’t be earned (John 3:16, etc). The natural result of being born again is good deeds. Good deed aren’t to earn salvation, but the result of salvation. Galatians 3:10 and 5:1-3 make it clear that trying to pay for this gift with good deeds isn’t going to work.
5. Paul says that if Jesus didn’t actually rise from the dead, he is to be pitied above all men (1 Corinthians 15). The disciples touched Jesus’ body; Jesus ate food with them.
Rest assured I can show you in the Bible all of these doctrines. They’re not made up. You may not like it, but they are in the Bible. We can disagree on whether speaking in tongues is valid for today, but these five items are not negotiable.
Thanks,
Bill
BillPhillips wrote:
1. “I think you agree that Jesus is God.”
Well, not really, because I am talking about what others believed in early times. In my view many early Christians considered Jesus to be “God” in the sense that he was the Logos, the emanation of the “First” God who created the world. I think there is support for that not only in the gospel attributed to John, but also elsewhere in the NT and in early Christian writings. Jesus was considered by many early Christians to be Yahweh, but Yahweh was not the “Father” in the language of Jesus. That is why the prologue to John distinguishes, in the Greek, between “ho theos,” God the “Father” in the language of Jesus, and “theos,” the Logos as divine, the “second God” of Philo and of Justin Martyr.
You wrote:
2. “The Gospel is defined in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. The verse you cited from Mark contains no contradictory definition. Galatians 1:8-9 says there is only one Gospel that will work for us.”
The PAULINE Gospel is defined in 1 Corinthians. But we need not assume it is identical to the gospel attributed by many early Christians to Jesus, which seems to have consisted largely in the proclamation of the soon-to-come Kingdom of God –“Repent, for the Kingdom of God is near.” But of course the Kingdom of God expected by Jesus never came.
You wrote:
3. “Isaiah 46:8-9 makes it clear that we must believe in only one God. ”
One cannot expect the books of the Bible to be consistent, because they were written by many different people over a vast stretch of time, and often express quite different viewpoints. The early Hebrews were polytheists and henotheists, with a theology not too dissimilar from that of their Canaanite neighbors, and traces of that theology still remain in the OT, not to mention in archeological evidence. But added to that in the OT is a later, more monotheistic revisionism found here and there. So there is really more than one point of view on this matter expressed by the OT. The NT often repeats a rather polytheistic view in its presentation of Jesus as Yahweh, one of the Sons of El in the OT, to whom the care of Israel was entrusted. Much of Christianity still preserves an essentially polytheistic approach in the Trinity doctrine, which maintains that one God is really three.
You wrote:
“There are two ways to get to heaven. One is to be perfect, thereby earning heaven. One is to go through Jesus. Jesus is the one that made it clear that this is a gift that can’t be earned (John 3:16, etc). The natural result of being born again is good deeds. Good deed aren’t to earn salvation, but the result of salvation.”
I think you are referring to Pauline salvation by faith — “faith alone” as Luther put it in his translation of the Bible, but as Luther recognized, James had a different and more traditionally Jewish opinion — that faith alone was not enough. That is why Luther considered James an “epistle of straw” — because it opposed his preferred doctrine of salvation by faith alone. To me this is one of the points in the conflict between Pauline Christianity and the more traditionally Jewish Christianity likely represented by the Jerusalem Church.
You wrote:
5. “Paul says that if Jesus didn’t actually rise from the dead, he is to be pitied above all men (1 Corinthians 15). The disciples touched Jesus’ body; Jesus ate food with them.”
Again, you are mixing books. Paul says nothing about anyone touching Jesus, or Jesus eating with anyone, but it is rather immaterial (no pun intended) here; the significant thing is that Paul said quite clearly that the resurrection body is not a normal physical body. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. And Paul, as already mentioned, says clearly that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. Paul believed Jesus was resurrected, obviously, but he did not believe he was resurrected in the identical body that was buried. Thus no need for an empty tomb, which Paul NEVER mentions as evidence of the resurrection.
You wrote:
“We can disagree on whether speaking in tongues is valid for today, but these five items are not negotiable.”
Actually, I think we would disagree on whether glossolalia was EVER valid in the sense of being authentic rather than a psychological manifestation — and we would probably even disagree on what it means to “speak in tongues,” but as for the rest of it, there has always been disagreement and dissension among various groups of Christian believers, and we see it evidenced in the NT as early as the writings of Paul, considered the earliest Christian writings in the NT. And of course there is, as I already wrote, also disagreement between early and later teachings in the OT and the NT — for example the development of belief in a “Hell” as opposed to Sheol as simply the dark realm of the dead in the OT, and the development of a belief in Satan as the great opponent of God, as contrasted with the OT attitude toward Satan as merely being one who opposes or tests. Beliefs change and doctrines change, and all we can do is trace those changes historically. We need not accept any of them as they were at any point.
Hokku,
I agree hell was an idea that was not clear in the Old Testament. Heaven isn’t all that clear either. But what we do know is that while the NT brings in a lot of new details, none of it conflicts with the OT.
I think the entire Bible is God’s Word. All I can tell you is that the Bible harmonizes beautifully when you read it plainly.
Thanks,
Bill
It is not just that the modern Protestant concept of Hell “was not clear in the OT,” but rather that it did not exist at all in the OT. Nor does the Trinity doctrine, as understood in the 4th century and later, find any place in the OT (which is, of course, why Jews do not believe in a Trinity.
I think history itself immediately disproves your statement “the Bible harmonizes beautifully when you read it plainly.” Luther found out the falsehood of that right away, because as soon as others began interpreting the newly-translated Bible for themselves, Protestantism began splitting into numerous divisions. And as I already wrote, there never was a time when Christianity was simply one monolithic belief system, because there are divisions obvious even in the earliest Christian writings.
I do not consider the Bible to be “God’s Word.” I think if a deity were to want to communicate a vitally important message to humans, it would not be done through a fallible anthology of documents written and edited and revised by fallible humans in copies subject to change and obviously not clear and consistent enough in what they teach to be comprehensible. The multiplicity of Christian sects is witness to that. And that does not even include the many contradictions with what we know scientifically of the origins and nature of the universe — something of which the biblical writers were completely ignorant.
I think there are hints at hell and the Trinity in the Old Testament. Daniel 12:2 hints at hell. Isaiah 7:14, 9:6, and Zechariah 12:10 are pretty clear about the deity of the Messiah. I think I could come up with a pretty good argument for the Trinity from the OT, but it would only be because I have the knowledge of the NT, so I don’t blame the Jews for not seeing it.
I agree that there are thousands of protestant churches. However, 99% of them agree on the 5 points I gave you. Even Catholics agree with all of those 5 except salvation by faith alone.
True science agrees with the Bible, and the scientific facts in the Bible are evidence that the Bible is the word of God. Satan’s first interaction with humans was to cast doubt on what God said, and it sounds like you’ve gone for that.
You and I can probably debate the Bible for a very long time. I think maybe one of the only things that is going to get us anywhere is the resurrection of Jesus. Do you believe Jesus rose from the dead? If you don’t, have you examined the evidence? If you do, what do you think the implications are?
Thanks,
Bill
Scientific facts in the Bible? Like the solid sky of Genesis, that has the sun and moon set in it, and vast waters above it? Like the biblical world that shows no sign of knowledge that the earth revolves about the sun? I don’t think so.
But you want to talk resurrection. As you know, the only accounts we have are the very discrepant tales in the four gospels, plus a bit in Acts and in 1st Corinthians. But these accounts differ so much that we cannot take them seriously.
We find the same problem in the discrepancies between Luke and Matthew, for example, that we find in the birth narratives of Luke and Matthew. They are two quite different stories, telling us about a resurrection, but presenting the events in very incompatible ways. Nothing really historical about either one, and comparing them with the accounts in John, Acts, and 1 Corinthians, the problems only deepen. And of course Mark originally had no post-resurrection stories at all — just women who find an empty tomb, meet someone there, and run away in fright, too afraid to talk.
You’ve totally misunderstood what Genesis says.
Here are a few scientific facts from the Bible:
-The earth is a sphere (Isaiah 40:22).
-Incalculable number of stars (Jeremiah 33:22).
-Free float of earth in space (Job 26:7).
-Creation made of invisible elements (Hebrews 11:3).
-Each star is different (1 Corinthians 15:41).
-Light moves (Job 38:19,20).
-Air has weight (Job 28:25).
-Winds blow in cyclones (Ecclesiastes 1:6).
-Blood is the source of life and health (Leviticus 17:11).
-Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains (2 Samuel 22:16; Jonah 2:6).
-Ocean contains springs (Job 38:16).
-When dealing with disease, hands should be washed under running water (Leviticus 15:13).
The accounts of the resurrection don’t conflict. Do you think they all have to have the exact same info in each one? Why have more than one account if they’re exactly alike? If one contains more info than another, one could be said to have gaps, right? Take a look at http://www.carm.org/diff/table_resurrection.htm
From what you said, it sounds like you don’t believe in the resurrection. Much of the resurrection and the results can be verified from ancient secular writers.
When the disciples started preaching about Jesus having risen from the dead, why didn’t the Jews and/or Romans bring out Jesus’ dead body to immediately end all talk of Jesus’ resurrection. The purpose of crucifying Him was to end Jesus’ ministry. It seems like a pretty effective method. Why didn’t it work?
Why were the disciples, who were cowering in fear while Jesus was being crucified, filled with a desire to go out and preach after He rose from the dead? Almost all of them gave their lives. Plenty of people have died for a lie that they sincerely believed. No one has given their lives for something they know is a lie.
Entire books have been written on this topic, and you should take a look at one.
Thanks,
Bill
BillPhillips wrote:
-The earth is a sphere (Isaiah 40:22).
You are mistakenly reading science into Isaiah. What Isaiah actually says here is:
1. The earth is a circle, not a sphere. A circle is flat.
2. God sits above the circle of the earth.
3. The firmament is stretched over the earth like a tent (remember, the firmament is solid!
4. From God’s height above the circle of the earth, people appear like grasshoppers.
Now obviously NONE of this fits what we know of the earth. It is pre-scientific.
If you want to discuss more of the supposed “science” of the Bible, the others can similarly be dealt with. But my time right now is limited, so I want to go on to the resurrection.
You write:
From what you said, it sounds like you don’t believe in the resurrection. Much of the resurrection and the results can be verified from ancient secular writers.
None of it can be verified from ancient secular writers.
1. What ancient, contemporary secular writer speaks of Jesus being crucified in Jerusalem? None.
2. What ancient, contemporary secular writer speaks of Jesus being buried in the tomb of Joseph? None.
3. What ancient, contemporary secular writer speaks of a guard set at the tomb? None.
4. What ancient, contemporary secular writer speaks of witnesses to a resurrection of Jesus? None.
5. What ancient, contemporary secular writer speaks of post-resurrection appearances of Jesus? None.
6. What ancient, contemporary secular writer speaks of the ascension of Jesus? None.
You ask why Romans didn’t bring out a body when Christians began speaking about the resurrection. There are countless possible reasons for this. Jesus may never have existed at all. Christians were a tiny fraction of people, too insignificant for the attentions of the officials. Christians were preaching a non-physical resurrection. Christians themselves stole the body. The body was thrown in a common grave, as was common in crucifixion. Etc. Etc. Etc. Given that there is no evidence for the resurrection, and given that Jesus was treated as a criminal, who would give the matter any importance except those trying to propagate whatever was Christian belief in the first century?
You ask why disciples cowering in fear were filled with a desire to preach?
First, we don’t know that any of this is true. The only person from whom we have a direct account is Paul, the earliest NT writer, and there is no evidence that he ever saw Jesus during his lifetime. And all that he knew of him later seems to come from visions he claimed to have. Why did Joseph Smith continue to preach in spite of all the legal trouble it caused him? Why did Mormons hold to their beliefs after Joseph Smith was killed? People get all kinds of strange ideas and do all kinds of peculiar things for strange reasons.
The important thing is that the resurrection accounts are so discrepant they cannot successfully be harmonized, and there is no secular evidence at all for any of the resurrection story — in fact no reliable secular evidence that the Jesus of the Bible ever existed.
Of course entire books have been written on the topic, but they have all been weighed in the balance and found wanting. None are convincing, but simply attempt to twist the evidence to support whatever the writer’s personal belief happens to be.
When the disciples started preaching about Jesus having risen from the dead, why didn’t the Jews and/or Romans bring out Jesus’ dead body to immediately end all talk of Jesus’ resurrection. The purpose of crucifying Him was to end Jesus’ ministry. It seems like a pretty effective method. Why didn’t it work?
Why were the disciples, who were cowering in fear while Jesus was being crucified, filled with a desire to go out and preach after He rose from the dead? Almost all of them gave their lives. Plenty of people have died for a lie that they sincerely believed. No one has given their lives for something they know is a lie.
billphillips said:
“You’ve totally misunderstood what Genesis says.”
I would like you to tell me precisely, in your view, what the Creation account of Genesis says. And then we shall look at it, and see if that is really what it says, or whether you are mixing in matters external to Genesis.
Hokku,
Sorry it took so long to get back to you; I’ve been out of town.
Regarding your question about what Genesis says, it says there was a canopy of water above the earth in the atmosphere.
If you don’t even know for sure whether Jesus exists, I guess even discussing His resurrection is a waste of time. Anyone who has set out to disprove it has come to believe it to be true.
Thanks for the discussion.
Bill
BillPhillips wrote:
“Regarding your question about what Genesis says, it says there was a canopy of water above the earth in the atmosphere.”
I am going to ask you to be very honest. Does it really say that? No. It says nothing about vapor. It says nothing about a canopy. Where then does your vapor canopy come from?
It comes from Isaac Newton Vail, who first came up with the notion of a vapor canopy in a booklet written in 1874. That is considerably later than Genesis. What Genesis actually says is that there was a firmament, a “raqia” in Hebrew — which separated the waters above the firmament from the waters below. No vapor, no canopy. What is happening here is that you are reading modern Creationist theories, popularized in fundamentalist books after Vail, that use the concept taken from Vail — such as The Genesis Flood by Whitcomb & Morris.
Now I am going to ask you to be honest about the second matter as well.
You wrote:
“If you don’t even know for sure whether Jesus exists, I guess even discussing His resurrection is a waste of time. Anyone who has set out to disprove it has come to believe it to be true.”
Your statement is simply and verifiably wrong. There are whole books written by people who have studied the existence or nonexistence of a biblical Jesus thoroughly and have come to the conclusion that he did not exist. That is easy for anyone to check.
It would seem to me to be a fundamental question of interest to all Christians. Did the Jesus described in the Bible really exist? If he did not, of course questions about resurrection are purely academic. If he did, all kinds of interesting questions are raised about why the Bible is so dotted with significant discrepancies in reporting what is supposed to be his life, and that leads to important insights into the nature of the Biblical documents.
So it is not a pointless exercise, because it tells us a great deal about the Bible, and shows clearly, in my view, that it is a fallible and very human collection of edited and revised documents.
Hokku,
It’s very simple to understand the concept of a canopy of water from Genesis 1:6-8. There was water on the earth, air above the earth, and water above the sky (NIV) or heaven (KJV). The KJV is from 1611, and if you read it you understand this idea clearly, regardless of what some guy from 200 years later says.
Jesus is mentioned by so many ancient writers and historians that it’s a joke to think he doesn’t exist. No reputable scholar denies Jesus’ existence. If you want to do that, you’re in fantasy land.
We’ve barely scratched the surface on so many topics, and it’s evident we could spend a very long time talking. The question is whether it’s worth our time. We can’t even agree on the most basic things.
One thing I would like to leave you with is that you’re going to give an account of every thought word and deed on Judgment Day, whether you believe it or not. All liars will have their part in the lake of fire (Rev 21:8).
I’ll let you have the last word.
Thanks,
Bill
It’s very simple to understand the concept of a canopy of water from Genesis 1:6-8. There was water on the earth, air above the earth, and water above the sky (NIV) or heaven (KJV). The KJV is from 1611, and if you read it you understand this idea clearly, regardless of what some guy from 200 years later says.
Lets go back to 1611 and the KJV, which says that the “firmament” separated the waters above it from the waters below it. A firmament is, obviously, “firm” — solid. That is also the meaning of the terms used in the Septuagint, the Bible of the early church, and in the Latin Vulgate. So what Genesis presents is a solid sky that separated the watery abyss (Heb. “tehom”) into two parts, waters below and waters above a solid sky.
Now obviously the sky is not solid. And we know that there is not a vast reservoir of water above a solid sky or firmament. So it is all simply wrong. There was and is no “canopy,” as we know from space exploration, which neither had to punch a hole through a solid sky nor send a rocket through a vast reservoir of waters “above the firmament.”
You also wrote:
“Jesus is mentioned by so many ancient writers and historians that it’s a joke to think he doesn’t exist.”
By whom? What writer contemporary to Jesus unquestionably mentions him? Where outside the NT do we find him mentioned by contemporary secular historians? Where is all this vast evidence you keep mentioning? Can you cite it and exactly what was said in the earliest of these?
You keep making broad statements, but so far you have not provided the slightest evidence to back them up. Can you do so?
Hokku,
Not to be a jerk, but are you being intentionally dense to bait me into continuing to talk, or do you really not get this? This is very simple to understand. Read it carefully, especially verse 8a. I can give you the Hebrew words and definitions for firmament and heaven if you really want, but it seems simple enough in English.
Genesis 1:6-8:
6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
fir·ma·ment /ˈfɜrməmənt/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[fur-muh-muhnt] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun the vault of heaven; sky. (Dictionary.com)
The following is taken from: http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/jewish-tradition.htm You should take a look at it.
Other extra-biblical, non-Christian, authors who wrote about Jesus include: Cornelius Tacitus, Lucian of Samosata, Suetonius, Pliny the younger, Thallus, Phlegon, Mara Bar-Serapion, Josephus.
Bill
I realize this may not have much to do with Jehovah’s Witnesses, but there are a few links I’d like to get you to look at:
This one is about:
Cobra golf clubs
Cobra is one of the top golf companies, especially for drivers.
I also like Callaway golf clubs. They sponsor Phil Mickelson, who is a great player on the PGA tour.
A great company for fairway woods is Yonex golf clubs.
An exciting new company is Simpac golf clubs. They make perfectly square club heads, and so far they only make drivers, fairway woods, and hybrids.
Thanks for taking a look.
Check out what Jesus said in John 3:3, 3:18, 3:36, 14:6, and Luke 13:5.
Also, take a look at 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9, Revelation 21:8.
It doesn’t take a genius to figure this stuff out. You just have to read the Bible.
Bill
Bill,
After 39 years, I am trying to build a relationship with God. One month ago, I was visited by a Chinese mother and young daughter. I thought they were at the wrong apartment so I opened the door. They read literature and since then I have invited them three times in my home for study. The last meeting they gave me a bible and sure enough Jehovah was used. It was never brought up before in any of the conversations or bible readings. I was naive to think that Jehovah’s Witnesses were not in Singapore. I do remember them in my younger days as those people who would not take no for an answer. I was at a very low time in my life when these folks contacted me so I do appreciate that they cared enough to be the only ones to offer any religion. I looked at this as a sign that I was on the correct path towards becoming a better person and understanding God. I was reading Deepak Chopra and turning towards spirituality when the Jehovah’s Witnesses contacted me. To this day I have never disclosed my personal issues with anyone so they have no idea the impact they had made by just showing up at the right place and time in my life. Now, I am worried in what they are teaching is not correct. I am trying to educate myself by doing research but it is very frustrating. It seems that many religions that believe in Jesus and God are pointing the fingers as to what the bible really is saying and who is correct. When this happens I want to stop and turn my back again on religion. As a young child I remember watching people go to church all dressed up and it was to impress others in the community. They said their prayers and then were forgiven for their sins. Come Monday they were back to being terrible people but on Sunday all was fine. I have tried to watch Sunday television shows on religion but again I find this irritating and fake. There are at least 12 main religions here in Singapore from Hindu, Jainism and Taoism. What is the best way to start understanding the bible besides just reading the pages on my own? I don’t think I am grasping the full meaning by myself. Is the belief by Jehovah’s Witnesses really incorrect?
Suzan,
Thanks for your comment.
I know the Bible is true. There is a lot of evidence from prophecies about Jesus coming true to archaelogical findings. If you’re doubting the Bible, I have a short writing about the trustworthiness of the Bible on one of the tabs at the top.
Many religions believe the Bible is true or valuable, but all but one add other writings to it. Jews only believe the Old Testament, but they have the Talmud, which some consider more important than the Bible. Catholics say tradition and what the pope says is just as valuable as the Bible. Mormons add 3 extra books of scripture to the Bible. Muslims think the Bible is mostly corrupt, and add the Koran. Jehovah’s Witnesses say they can’t understand the Bible without the aid of the writings of the Watchtower. Christians are the only ones who say the Bible is the only thing that is from God, and everything else is fine as long as it agrees with the Bible. If it disagrees, we know it’s wrong.
I’m sorry for the Christian hypocrites you’ve run into, but while men will let you down, Jesus never will. Studying the Bible can be hard work, but it pays off.
Jehovah’s Witnesses are wrong. It can be easily proven with a reliable Bible, and even with their own NWT. What they do is take one verse or a few verses and use it to prove their point. The problem is they take the verse out of context, or ignore verses that explain it, and make an entire doctrine out of it. I would love to answer any specific questions you have.
Let me recommend a way to learn the Bible that isn’t just reading it through. Go to this website: http://www.carm.org/doctrine.htm and read through it. It starts out with Christian doctrines, and why we believe what we do. You can look up Jehovah’s Witness stuff on that site, too. I can tell you the author is correct, but we can never sit back and swallow everything someone says. We verify it with the Bible, and this would be a good way for you to start really learning the Bible. Look up the verses he uses, and read them in context.
The most important thing is to make sure you’re born again. Jesus said no one can go to heaven unless they’re born again (John 3:3). Do you know what “born again” means? Are you born again?
Bill
Thank you for taking the time to respond. I do not know what born again means. I will go to the website you recommended and begin there.
Maybe some one should do a little research about the actual beginnings of Christianity and the Bible, and the God and Jesus myths. Christianity, as we almost know it today, had a beginning. It was not 6,000 years ago; it was more like 1,700 years ago.
Constantine the Great had a very big hand in it. His buddy Eusebius was responsible for picking what was to be included in the first bibles produced with both OT and NT combined.
I have found that people can spout verses at each other till the cows come home and it makes not one bit of difference. All of their basic premises are probably wrong. Very large chance that it’s man made.
Did secular writers speak of Jesus in his time? Jesus was raising people from the dead, curing leprosy and other fatal diseases feeding hundreds with a loaf of bread, and so on. Was this not important enough for writers outside the faith?
Eusebius and Constantine were responsible for the organizing and widespread dissemination of their own, and early writers views of Christianity and dogma. It was aided by the early ‘Roman Catholic’ church, which by the way soon started destroying other writing that they considered “heretical.” Of course the church fought tooth and nail among themselves for the next hundred or so years to establish the Official Canon.
Somehow that doesn’t sound like God directed Scripture to me. Many of the Scriptures contradict each other and, although Paul’s invention of Original Sin was brilliant, there is too much about the Bible that is just flat out wrong. People put way to much faith in modern church leaders; they need to investigate. Question everything you think you know.
It took many years for the Catholic Church, which was all we had at the time, to come up with the script for Christians to follow, and of course when Luther and others came along, they had to write a new script for Protestants.
The concept of Trinity was made up by early church fathers; it was never a ‘Word of God’ thing. Eusebius tinkered with early writings. People and churches have for 1700 years been applying their own personal translation to the Christian Scriptures.
If there was a God, who entered in man’s history rather belatedly by the way, then I think his adulation manual would not seem so human. It’ too much like a fairy tale—nice, but you can tell it never happened.
The Bible, and therefore Christianity have a big reputation to live up to. It’s supposed to be the Word of God, which inherently means it’s inerrant. If you prove one thing is wrong in the Bible, you’ve proved it all wrong. The Flood never happened….
Thewordofme,
Thanks for your comment.
So are you an atheist, agnostic or something else? How do you account for the resurrection of Jesus? He was crucified to shut Him up and that’s usually a very effective method. When the disciples go on preaching in public that Jesus rose from the dead, why didn’t they just drag out Jesus’ rottting corpse?
What about the prophecies from hundreds of years before Jesus, such as Genesis 3:15, Isaiah 7:14, 9:6, 53?
Thanks,
Bill
Hi billphillips,
Thank you for your reply.
I am neither an atheist nor agnostic. I am a human resident of the earth, an American, a husband, father, a grandfather, and a friend. I identify with nothing else. I find this a good and fulfilling life and I don’t feel I am missing a thing.
Moses started the Jewish religion in 1600+- BC. What was mankind and God doing before this time?
Genesis 3:15 KJV And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. You got me there…
Isaiah 7:1414 KJV Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.—She named him Jesus—Wrong prophecy. The virgin thing is found in other religions also
Isaiah 9:6 KJV For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Wrong titles—the Prince of Peace thing didn’t work out for him…or us, for that matter. Religion has caused man/women many, many deaths in this poor world, and with the currant Muslim thing, many more will come to a painful end in the name of religion.
Isaiah 53 KJV
1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Most of the Old and New Testament was made up. Yes, there are truths there, such as historical places, some of the people, and a very few of the events. The Flood, just flat did not happen. Jericho was in ruins at the time that Joshua was supposed to knock down the walls. There was no ‘promised land’—the Jews had to fight tooth and nail to forcibly take the land. Consider the different genealogies of Jesus, the different accounts of Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John and the resurrection, all the many other discrepancies in the book. God directed work??? Man made….more than likely.
There is no God, no Satan, No Angels, No Demons, NO magic spirit in the skies. There is no magic in this world. There is no God looking over your shoulder, keeping score.
Show me any of the above and I’ll…well, I don’t know what I’d do…probably die and go to hell. :-)
theWordofMe: you seem to be long on accusations but nonexistent on proof, which the Bible has in abundance. The flood has been proven, many events in the Bible have been recorded by non-Biblical writers (Josephus among them), and you seem to not understand much of Biblical interpretation (such as the Prince of Peace, which brings peace to all whom believe in Him. His saving is the world is one at a time, not a blanket).
I know you say that you only identify with things of this world, and you don’t feel your missing anything, and I would agree that of course you don’t feel you are missing anything. If you have never tried fine wine, or homemade bread, or a beautiful sunset, you wouldn’t know what you are missing either.
I see people everyday who are going through life in a perpetual state of hurting, I encourage you to try to believe that you are worthy of a love that is beyond our understanding. And I will pray for you, as I pray for all pre-Christians, to embrace His love.
Jesus IS God! Who else could have paid the price required for our sins to be forgiven?
ONLY Jesus who was God in the flesh (Philippians 2:5-11) was worthy enough to pay the price required for our sins to be forgiven.
I would like for all Jehovah witnesses, expecially the one who can supposedly read Greek and Hebrew to read the Juius Mantey article. Mr Mantey is the foremost Greek Scholar of the 20th century. He states that the NWT translation alters verses in the New Testament scores of times to fit their bias beliefs. He calls the translation diabolical and deceiving. They won’t even publish the names of their translators because not one of them is knowledgeable in Greek and Hebrew. Do your homeworkwitnesses!! The whole organization is based on nothing but false prophecies Your founder Taz Russell based his predictions on the measurements of the pyramids. How stupid can you get. He even has a pyramid on his grave. The organization predicted millions of christians would die and the church would be destroyed in 1918; another false prophecy. Your second president Joseph Rutherford predicted the return of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in 1925. He even built a huge house and named it Beth Sarim, in San Diego for them when they returned. Here’s another false prophecy. They quietly sold that house later on. Let us not foget 1975 the year the world was supposed to end. Guess what, it didn’t. I believe 3 fourths of the members left after that. Read Deuteronomy 18 chapter. It tells you what happens to false prophets.
Anytime someone starts their argument with the tired old “Constantine invented Christianity” you can pretty much skip everything else they say. Because they are beginning with a foundation of lies.
Here we go again, 500th verse same as the first:
The Council of Nicea WAS NOT called to INVENT the Christian faith, but to DEFEND it. I don’t have time to go through and list all the writings of many leaders in the early church (Tertullian, Justin Martyr, Clement, etc) whose writings were based on the Scriptures, who were defending the orthodox view of the Trinity, and who were writing AT LEAST 100 YEARS BEFORE NICEA (As the apostle Paul said, see with how large letters I have written to you). As far as the “different geneologies” in Matthew and Luke–lame. One traced back through Mary, the other through Joseph. As far as Jericho being “knocked down before Joshua got there.” We find evidence of this from…whom?
Hi Saint Bill,
Picked you up as a contributor on DefCon site. I’m an ex JW, was one in the late 80’s and God through His incredible GRACE saved me from that. I was saved,born again, filled with the Holy Spirit all in one incredible night 8 years ago. Changed my life for eternity.
When I was a JW I read the word out of the assigned JW program. I used to read the bible (yes the NW tran) through about once a year plus doing the assigned JW studies. Through the reading of the word something did not just seem right and I knew that what I was being taught would not save me. Altho at the time I thought the problem was all me. So I walked away and shut myself from all religious and spiritual experiences for 12 years. But God had never forsaken me.
I realise that I’ve gotta get my testimony up on my blog. Have not done so yet.
Anyways just to encourage you uplift you and keep doing what you do. I’ll be back for more visits. Thank you so much for your efforts.
LoCTY!!!!!
Ask these questions to yourself,
If Jesus is equal to God the Almighty (or God himself) – then:
1. Who was the FATHER when it said “Father is greater than I” in John 14:28?
2. Who ressurected Jesus in his death?
3. Who was the man in “And I was daily his delight, Rejoicing always before him” in Prov 8:30? – Read the full phrase from Proverbs 8:22 to 8:36 !
4. If Jesus is God, why would he bother to call himself in Mark 15:34?
5. When Jesus was on earth, who ruled in heaven?
6. Whom did Stephen see standing on the right hand of God in Acts 7:56? If Jesus is God, this verse whould not even exist.
7. Why doesn’t Jesus know when He should come to earth for the second time?
8. Who was this “God” when Jesus said “I have found no works of yours perfected before my God” in Rev 3:2?
9. If Jesus is equal to His Father, who was actually His Father when He spoke on many occations in: (a) John 5:23 (b) John 5:30 (c) John 6:29 (d) John 6:44 (e) John 7:33 and MANY MORE *believe me, I can show you 20 more.
10. Why did Jesus pray to himself in John 17:3?
11. Who was Jesus’s Father in John 17:3 to 26?
12. If Jesus is God, who is YHWH?
13. Who was the other person that helped God when He created man in Genesis 1:26? “Let US make man in OUR image”.
If that person was Jesus and Jesus is God himself, wouldn’t it mean that there are TWO GODS?
And MANY OTHER QUESTIONABLE VERSES FOR YOU.
If you or anyone, who can actually answer these questions in a biblical manner (according to the bible please), please I will definitely change my faith into: “Jesus is equal to God”
Thank you.
most of all, if Jesus is God Himself / equal to God, then:
WHO GAVE JESUS THE AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH? as in Matthew 28:18 ?
This question is very very important to me. Please,… I am DYING TO KNOW.
ATTENTION: if you can cleary answer all those questions above based on the facts that they are all written in the Bible, then you can proceed to read this comment.
————————————————————————————–
Jesus NEVER introduced himself as God, or even equal to God. The 12 Disciples never introduced Jesus as God. These are the greatest FACTS in the bible. He even said that His Father (the one who sent him) was GREATER than Him (John 14:28).
Jesus came to earth under one mission, to introduce His Father and to inform people that the path to His Father is trough Him. Jesus acts as a bridge (a MEDIATOR) between God and humans, because God is holy and all humans are sinners. (Romans 3:4) That was why Jesus was crucified, remember?
1 John 2:1
“My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.”
1 Timothy 2:5
“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.”
Galatians 3:20
“A mediator, however, does not represent just one party; but God is one.”
Hebrews 7:25
“Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.”
Hebrews 12:24
“…to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.”
– Why is it so hard for you to understand? –
Just because Jesus said in John 10:30 “My Father and I are one” does not mean Jesus IS the Father! Jesus and His Father are two different persons.
Jesus was CREATED, see Collosians 1:15, and Proverbs 8:22-36. Those verses tell us that Jesus and His Father are two different persons! Besides, Jesus himself always said that it was His Father who sent Him. (Scroll a little bit up, and see Question number 9, please). How can Jesus be the messenger and the one who “send Jesus” altogether (in the same time) !
If the word “ONE” in John 10:30 means ONE person, then how do you explain the word “ONE” in John 17:11:
“I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that THEY may be ONE AS we are one.”
If the phrase “one as we are one” in the verse above means “the same as” or “equal to“, and since the word “THEY” means US, HUMANS, then the conclusion is that we are the same as God (equal). Don’t you think it is a way bit too high to equalize humans to God? Besides, Jesus said “by the power of your name”, well, whose name is it?
If Jesus is God, then this verse in Matthew 4:1 should never even exist too!
“Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.”
Because we all know that God CAN NOT be tempted by evil, see James 1:13
“When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone.”
There are plenty other facts that tell us: Jesus is the Son, and His Father is the Real God and they are two different persons but people just don’t want to see them!
John 20:30-31 says:
“Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the SON of GOD, and that by believing you may have life in his name.”
Thank you and sorry for posting so many comments (3 times) on a single batch.
proverbs 17:15
Anonymous,
Thanks for your comment. I’m sorry I haven’t got to your questions earlier, but I’m out of town, and I’ll be back on Sunday. I’ve answered all of your questions repeatedly on this blog, and they are nothing new. In fact, it seems to me that JWs have a standard set of verses and questions they ask.
You’ve responded to a post with a lot of information that is devestating to JW doctrine by changing the subject. I’d love to hear a response to what I wrote in the post. It seems that is also a standard JW technique as you can see by reading the comments on this very post.
While I’ve always tried to learn what JWs really believe, and accurately represent that on this blog, it appears you haven’t done the same with the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus is not the Father. That is modalism, not the Trinity. Furthermore, Jesus is the second person of the Trinity. This means that Jesus willingly submits to the Father. If I submit to my boss, we’re both still humans. He doesn’t become a superior life form. Also, in the New Testament, Jesus is often referred to as Lord, and even the only Lord (1 Cor. 8). Yahweh is the Lord (when I say that I don’t mean “LORD”, but “Lord”). The Father is referred to as God.
Hopefully that helps you understand the Trinity a little bit better. It will take some time to understand what Trinitarians believe, but it is the only intellectually honest way to go.
I’m going to be out of town until Sunday, and I probably won’t be able to respond until then.
Thanks,
Bill
I’m sorry but I’m not affiliated with the JW’s or any other organizations. I am just an ordinary man who follows the Bible as it is. Actually you are not getting my message clearly. In the earlier comment you said Jesus is God, but now you said Jesus is the Lord. What I am asking is WHO IS THE GOD? Is it His Father or Jesus?
If you said Jesus is equal to His Father it means there are TWO GODS because Jesus and HIS FATHER are 2 different people.
Oh there are zero verses that say “TRINITY” in the Bible.
Thank You
Once you come back from your trip I will show you my opinion since I have to go now as well. :) See you later. Bye
Oh by the way, if you submit to your boss, yes you are both still humans, and that does not make your boss a superior life form, But… he is still your boss and you are STILL his employee. Submiting to your boss DOES NOT MAKE YOU A BOSS AS WELL because YOU ARE STILL HIS EMPLOYEE.
Thank you.
Bill Phillips says “If Jesus isn’t God, why did He call Himself Alpha and Omega, isn’t this blasphemy?”
But I say: Jesus was there before Abraham was born (John 8:58), in fact Jesus was created before all things were created, even before God himself created the whole universe (Proverbs 8:22-36), and that my friend, what makes Him the firstborn of all creations (Collosians 1:15), the Faitfull Witness (Revelation 1:5 & Revelation 3:14 – in this verse, Jesus is called AMEN). He even helped His Father in creating Adam (Genesis 1:26). Please check on those verses above carefully, you will then understand who Jesus really is and why He calls Himself Alpha and Omega! Please I urge you to check on those verses. (By the way, Alpha & Omega has the same meaning as First & Last)
Bill Phillips asks “why did Jesus call Himself Owner?”
My answer is: Because all that belong to God, belong to Jesus as in John 17:10 “all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.”
Bill Phillips asks “why did Jesus call Himself Savior?”
My answer is:
(1) “I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one comes unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6)
(2) “And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he has given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholds the Son, and believes on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:39-40)
Bill Phillips asks “why did Jesus call Himself Judge?”
My answer is:
(1) 2 Timothy 4:1 says “I charge you in the sight of God, and of Christ Jesus, who shall judge the living and the dead, and by His appearing and His kingdom”
(2) “For I have not said it on my authority, but the Father who sent me gave me orders what to say and how to say it. And I have knowledge that his order is eternal life: so that the things which I say, I say them even as the Father says them to me.” (John 12:49-50)
(3) “Of myself I am unable to do anything: as the voice comes to me so I give a decision: and my decision is right because I have no desire to do what is pleasing to myself, but only what is pleasing to him who sent me. If I gave witness about myself, my witness would not be true. There is another who gives witness about me and I am certain that the witness he gives about me is true.” (John 5:30-32)
Now Answer this:
If Jesus is equal to His Father (the second person of the Trinity), why Jesus did not know when He should come back to earth for the second time? If Jesus is not inferior to His Father, He should share the same knowledge.
If Jesus is equal to His Father (Bill emphasized that Jesus is not The Father but the second person of the Trinity), why He had to be given the authority in heaven and on earth by His Father? This means Jesus has no power at all (John 5:30-32) but He has to be given the power first in order to rule heaven and earth! Gentlemen read Matthew 28:18.
When Philip asked Jesus to show where His Father was in John 14:9, Jesus answered, “For a long time I have been with you all; yet you do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. Why, then, do you say, ‘Show us the Father’?”
Jesus answered: “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.” CAN NOT BE CONSIDERED as “Jesus is the Father” or “Jesus is equal to His Father”
Since Jesus was the AUTHORISED messenger sent by God (and still is), it is clear that:
whoever denies Jesus, denies His Father
whoever rejects Jesus, also rejects His Father
whoever has seen Jesus, has seen His Father
Whoever killed Jesus (the romans had Jesus crucified), that means they rejected God the Almighty!
Whatever a man does to Jesus, he does to His Father! And why?
Because everthing that Jesus did on earth, He did it on His Father’s behalf! (John 6:38)
Let me give you an example:
(1) If the Queen of England asks a man to serve his country (ie: to go on a war, or anything else, this is just an example), would the Queen herself come right to this man’s doorstep personally or would she rather send a messenger, or a letter, or any other medium to get to this man’s house?
Let us suppose this man slapped the Queen’s messenger and slammed the door right on the face, doesn’t it mean that he has already rejected the Queen’s order? Although it wasn’t in front of the Queen herself this man expressed his bad attitude!
My saying is: By rejecting the Queen’s messenger, this man indirectly rejects the task the Queen of England gave. Got it? The same goes for Jesus! If you deny him, that means you deny the task His Father gave to Jesus! Because Jesus is not doing his own work but, the work His Father gave him (Matthew 12:50, John 6:30)
(2) If someone hates the Holy Bible, don’t you hastily think that this man hates God the Almighty? We both know that the Bible is just a book! A Book where you can buy in stores. WHY ?? Because God’s resemblance is in the Bible: God’s wisdoms, God’s rules, not to mention God’s grace, and God’s promises. If someone hates the Holy Bible, we are forced to conclude that he also hates God, but the Bible itself IS NOT God the Almighty!
Whoever has seen Me (Jesus), has seen the Father shares the similar contextual meaning as whoever hates the bible, hates God BUT Jesus is not the Father as in the Bible is not God.
I can not give you any better examples than these two, but I hope you guys get the idea!
Jesus never introduced Himself as God, the 12 disciples never introduced Jesus as God, Jesus never taught His disciples about the Triune God. Jesus was born a Jew, and his teaching has the core of a Jewish origin (Monotheistic God/One God only). Jesus did not even know about the Trinity or the Triune God at that time. Jesus ABSOLUTELY DID NOT bring a new theology! Even Jesus taught his followers to pray to His Father! (Matthew 6:9). If Jesus is God or even equal to God, why didn’t Jesus teach his disciples to pray to Him? Why all Christians now pray to Jesus, not to His Father? Even Jesus Himself prayed to His Father! PLEASE SEE John 17:3 and read the verses carefully. Yes, Jesus said to request in His name (John 14:13-14), but He certainly never asked us to worship His name!, because:
“My desire is for mercy, not offerings: for I have come not to get the upright, but sinners” (Matthew 9:13)
Jesus wants us to have mercy on Him!, and how do we do that?
(1) “For whoever does the pleasure of my Father in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.” (Matthew 12:50)
(2) “Jesus, answering, said to them, This is to do the work of God: to have faith in him whom God has sent.” (John 6:29)
(3) “I have given you an example, so that you may do what I have done to you.” (John 13:15)
(4) “By this it will be clear to all men that you are my disciples, if you have love one for another.” (John 13:35)
Jesus ABSOLUTELY DID NOT ASK us to worship Him!, all He ever wanted for us to do was to love one another! If we love one another, we have all become the disciples of Jesus! Jesus said to the devil who tempted Him in Matthew 4:10 to worship God, and serve Him only. Why didn’t Jesus said to the devil: “Worship Me and serve Me only.”?
What have Jesus done for us, that He wanted us to do exactly the same as He did it to us (John 13:15)? – He died for us!
“This is the LAW I give you: Have love one for another, even as I have love for you. Greater love has no man than this, that a man gives up his life for his friends. You are my friends, if you do what I give you orders to do. No longer do I give you the name of servants; because a servant is without knowledge of what his master is doing: I give you the name of friends, because I have given you knowledge of all the things which MY FATHER has said to me. You did not take me for yourselves, but I took you for myself; and I gave you the work of going about and producing fruit which will be for ever; so that whatever request you make to THE FATHER in MY NAME he may give it to you. So this is my law for you: Have love one for another.” (John 15:12-17)
Revelation 3:2 and Revelation 3:12 say:
“Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.”
“Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God, and I will also write on him my new name.”
In those verses above, Jesus spoke of His God‘s name at-least 5 (FIVE) times! So then it means Jesus and His Father are not the same person, the Father is Jesus’s God! And that concludes that Jesus is not equal to His Father, because Jesus himself said “MY GOD” when reffering to His Father!
You know, this debate will never end, because there are verses that can be used to prove that tinity is in the bible (although it’s not clear) and there are also verses that can be used to prove the otherwise, so I’d say to stop it because this is a waste of time. My suggestion is to follow your own perception and let God decide who is right and who is wrong when the time comes.
You know, there are even verses that can be used to prove that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. Read the whole Bible from page 1 to end and you will see. I bet you do not believe me, but it is in your bible and not on the JW’s bible!
I will not post any other comments in the future, and it’s been an honor for me to be able to put my opinions in your blog, Thank you and God bless.
If Jesus is the second person (Different from the Father, or “2 different people”), Jesus can not be reffered as God, because there has to be one God only. (Isaiah 43:10)
If Jesus is the Father (the same person, or God himself), this would be incorrect either because as the Anonymous have explained above Jesus spoke of His Father so many many times, and he claimed that he’s the messenger his Father sent, and that His Father is greater than Him.
So who is Jesus?
If one says that in Philippians 2:5-11, it is well written that Jesus, …”being in the nature of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness and being found in appearance as a man….”
Don’t you think it is strange that the person who wrote “The Letter to Philippians” was Paul and Paul is the same author of the “Letter to Ephesians” and the “Letter to Corinthians”, and those letter say:
“Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Ephesians 1:3)
– and –
“I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better” (Ephesians 1:17)
– and again –
“Yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live, and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came, and through whom we live” (1 Corinthians 8:6)
For me it is so strange, because one time Paul said that Jesus is equal to God (Philippians), and the other time Paul said that Jesus is not equal to God but His Father is, (Ephesians and Corintians). Which one is correct?
If you do want to know the answer, you have to read other versions of the holy bible and please DO NOT USE THE JW’s bible in order to satisfy your wicked hatred towards the JW’s! Each of those bibles has a different meaning.
My suggestion is to read:
(1) The Revised Standard Version
(2) The New Testament by G.R. Noyes, 1869
(3) Das Neue Testament, revised edition, 1965 by Friedrich Pfafflin
(4) La Bibbia Concordata, 1968
(5) Today’s English Version, 1976
(6) The New Jerusalem Bible, 1985, and lastly
(7) The Old Greek Translation
All I know that Jesus himself said that “The Father is greather than I” (John 14:28) and in all Paul’s letters, he never mentioned Jesus as God, nor Jesus is the Father.
Do you know what good news did Jesus bring to the world? “Not being afraid of death!” that is the “GOOD NEWS” that Jesus brought up. because in the Father, and through His Son, there is eternal life.
He who testifies to these things says “Yes, I am coming soon”
Amen, Come, Lord Jesus. (Revelation 22:20)
Anonymous and John,
I don’t say this to be condescending. You guys have obviously studied whatever material you have been given, but it just seems that you have ignored many verses. To someone who has studied this, and debated with JWs and many others, it is clear that the Trinity is the only thing that answers all of the questions in the Bible.
Anonymous,
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, which it seems you agree with, Anonymous. The Alpha and Omega is the Almighty (Revelation 1:8). As far as I’m concerned, if you concede that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, or refers to Himself as the Alpha and Omega, you’ve lost the debate.
You said that if there is one boss, and I’m not it, that doesn’t make me an inferior life form to my boss, but that means that I’m not the boss. I agree. You must agree that if Jesus has a boss, that doesn’t necessarily mean that He’s an inferior life form that His boss. However, Jesus goes on to take all of the authority and the titles of His boss. What makes you think He’s not the boss?
In performing the greatest act of love (John 15:13), Jesus took on the limitations of humanity, including giving up some knowledge. He lived an absolutely human life. When you say, “If Jesus is not inferior to His Father, He should share the same knowledge.” If someone has more knowledge than someone else, does that make them superior? I don’t understand why you would think that if Jesus had less knowledge, he would be inferior. He was equal, and the Bible says so (John 5:18, 23).
Jesus is worshipped both while He was on earth (Matt. 28:9), and in heaven (Hebrews 1:6, Revelation 5:11-14). Yet, He said worship only the Lord God (Matthew 4:10). If you don’t see Jesus being worshipped in your Bible, you’re using a bad translation. Study this out carefully. Try to prove the Watchtower wrong. If they are correct, they will stand up to your scrutiny. If they are wrong, your eternity depends on figuring out who Jesus is (John 8:24). This topic of worship is something I’d be happy to discuss with you further.
As far as how much power Jesus had, He willingly set Himself lower than the angels (Hebrews 2:9), and subject to the law (Galatians 4:4), He made Himself nothing (Phillipians 2:7).
Jesus commanded us to pray to Him (John 14:14).
Jesus claimed to be God when He said He would raise Himself from the dead (John 2:19-21). Jesus claimed to be able to forgive sins, and claimed to be the I AM (Exodus 3:14, 8:58).
Thanks,
Bill
John,
JWs believe that Jesus is a god, which is polytheism. Trinitarians believe there is one God. Jesus is the only true God. The Father is the only true God. The Holy Spirit is the only true God. There is one God in three persons. If you don’t understand it that’s OK, but it doesn’t make it untrue.
How can Jesus the one Lord (1 Cor. 8:6), when the Father (Yahweh) is the only Lord (Deuteronomy 10:17)? Are you denying the Lordship of the Father? Neither your Ephesians or 1 Corinthians verses mean that Jesus is not God. You should show those verses to oneness pentecostals, but they are in accordance with the Trinity.
Paul referred to Jesus as God repeatedly: Romans 9:5, Titus 2:13, etc.
Again, I try to represent the beliefs of others accurately on this blog. I would appreciate your taking the time to understand the doctrine of the Trinity. It’s clear that you don’t. A good website to check out is carm.org.
Thanks,
Bill
OK, it seems that this debate will never end LOL. I know you have your own opinion and I respect that. All that I have described above is based on the bible, you know I have presented all the verses as well. It is just a matter of one’s interpretation of the bible that’s all.
As I have said before, and I am gonna say it one more time, I am NOT a JW’s member nor am I affiliated with any other organizations. There are things which I disagree with the JW’s as well.
You said: How can Jesus the one Lord (1 Cor. 8:6), when the Father (Yahweh) is the only Lord (Deuteronomy 10:17). Well according to the bible (in my opinion): Jesus being Lord is because someone gave him the power, please read John 5:30-32. So this verse tells us that Jesus is inferior to His Father, because “all authority HAS BEEN given to me (Jesus) in heaven and on earth” (Matthew 28:18).
If Jesus equal to His Father, He should know when He’s going to come to earth for the second time! How could one person not know when he’s going to go somewhere? He can be Lord, Judge, etc, is because His Father gave Him the authority.
Look, just because JW’s believe Jesus is God, does not mean Polytheism. The only true God is YHWH. In Exodus 7:1 it is said “And the Lord said to Moses, See I have made you a god to Pharaoh, and Aaron your brother will be your prophet” So, do you think Pharaoh’s God is Moses? No, Pharaoh’s God is still Jesus’s Father! He is the only true God, the one that created earth.
Jesus is called God, is fine by me, anybody can also be called God, but the true God is only YHWH. Take a look at this “I said, You are gods; all of you are the sons of the Most High”” (Psalms 82:6). Does this verse make us GOD the TRUE GOD? No!
John 10:35 “If he said they were gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Writings may not be broken), Do you say of him whom the Father made holy and sent into the world, Your words are evil; because I (Jesus) said, I am God’s Son?”
See, the bearer of God’s words can also be called God, but that does not make them God the Almighty!
The Hebrew for God is ELOYHIM, but this ELOYHIM (GOD) also goes for Moses in Exodus 7:1, and it goes for the sons of Most High in Psalm 82:6, and it goes for anyone to whom the word of God’s came (ie: Jesus, Elijah, and many other prophets) in John 10:35. So how many Gods do you think there are?
The only one and true God is The Father, where in the OT is called YHWH. Why is it so hard for you to understand? I ask you a question regarding Revelation 3:2 and 3:12 where Jesus said the word “My God”. Why would Jesus calling His Father God?
Thanks
YOU SAID If someone has more knowledge than someone else, does that make them superior?
Well, the problem is Jesus DOES NOT KNOW about HIMSELF of when He should go to earth!. IF Jesus doesn’t know about someone else (other than himself) it makes sense, but Jesus DOES NOT know about his own coming to earth! Does it makes sense to you?
IF you don’t know when your son is going to bed, it all makes sense to me, but if YOU DON’T KNOW WHEN YOU (yourself) ARE GOING TO BED, it all does NOT make any sense to me! It sounds like you dont even know what you are going to do! I control my own desire, whether when I should eat, or go to sleep, or etc…etc…!
YOU SAID :He was equal, and the Bible says so (John 5:18, 23)
John 5:18 says “For this cause the Jews had an even greater desire to put Jesus to death, because not only did he not keep the Sabbath but he said God was his Father, so making himself equal with God.”
The one that is bolded is what Jesus said, and the one that is underlined is what the Jews think or make their own interpretation, and that is why the Jews want to kill Jesus! Those are two different opinions that came from two different person! Read the whole sentence over and over again!
I never said Jesus is not worshipped! Many people in the NT worshipped Jesus. I said that Jesus never asked us to worship him! Read John 5:41. In fact He even told satan to worship God, read Matthew 4:10
YOU SAID Jesus commanded us to pray to Him (John 14:14).
I say, read that verse one more time! “If you make any request to me in my name, I will do it.” Jesus said REQUEST! not PRAY! and it wasn’t a command, it’s a choice, because the word COMMAND is not in there!
Take a look at John 15:16: “You did not take me for yourselves, but I took you for myself; and I gave you the work of going about and producing fruit which will be for ever; so that whatever request you make to the Father in my name (Jesus’s name) he may give it to you.”
Who do you think that “He”, the one I have bolded? is it the Father or Jesus? That He is the Father! If that He is Jesus, it should have been “I” that may give it to you (us), because it’s Jesus that’s speaking right now.
Why is it so hard for you to understand?
By the way, I havent lost anything because your explanations don’t prove anything! You never answered all my questions.
proverbs 17:15 is a passage that destroys JW belief.
Jesus could not have been a created being according to this verse….
according to this verse, if they are right, then there is no hope
Tom,
Good point. You should explain that further if you get a chance, or send us a link where you have explained it.
Thanks,
Bill
Anonymous,
In an attempt to prove you’re a monotheist, you bring up reasons why you believe there are many gods. Monotheism is the belief that there is only one God. Clearly your beliefs don’t match the definition of montheism. The only remaining choices are atheism or polytheism.
Revelation 3:12:
As in John 17:3, Jesus has a God. Do you think Jesus who has had a relationship with His Father for all eternity would come to earth and live as an atheist? He made Himself nothing, and willingly submits to His Father.
In order to have a proper atonement for sin, God had to come to earth and become a man. Blood must be shed to atone for sins (Leviticus 17:11). God made Himself nothing, took on human flesh to pay for our sins. He is fully man and fully God. While on earth, He had limitations. He got tired, He had to use the bathroom, He had limited knowledge. These were self imposed limitations so that He could perform the greatest act of love (John 15:13). According to you, God made a creature to perform the greatest act of love, but He could never perform it Himself.
John 5:18:
Maybe you should read John 5:18 over and over again. The Holy Bible, inspired by God Almighty states that when Jesus said God is His Father, He was making Himself equal with God. Verse 23 says we should honor the Father and the Son equally.
Worship:
Do you worship Jesus? If someone worships Jesus, such as the angels or everyone in the throne room in heaven, do you think that’s a sin? Why would Jesus accept worship if we’re only supposed to worship God? What you’re explaining is either the pinnacle of idolatry, tolerated by God Himself, or Jesus must be God accepting worship.
Prayer:
Dictionary.com definition of prayer:
“1. a devout petition to God or an object of worship.”
Petition is a synonym for request. What would you call making requests to Jesus? If Jesus isn’t God, making requests of Him would be similar to Catholics praying to Mary and saints, i.e. blasphemy. Making requests of Jesus is either blasphemy or prayer. Do you make requests/pray to Jesus?
While you may not have lost anything because of my explanations, you’ve said that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, receives prayer, is worshipped, and you’ve shed light on your polytheism. Truly you’re not a Jehovah’s Witness, because that is much different than what they believe. If nothing else, it’s been interesting to talk to you, and I appreciate your time.
Thanks,
Bill
You still haven’t answered all my questions Bill. Jesus is the Lord who gave away His lordship to become a man. Jesus is not the TRUE GOD who gave away His Godship to become a man. There’s a difference between Lord and God. Have you read the Hebrew or Greek for God? It all applies to Moses, the angels, and Jesus! So how many gods do you think there are?
All I’m saying there is one only true God, and that is YHWH and how in the heck can I be either atheism or polytheism ? THAT IS MONOTHEISM. And please dont bring up dictionary.com. It wasn’t even there when Jesus was on earth! The Jews didn’t even have internet connection at that time! They were the ones who should really know what a prayer is all about.
A prayer is a type of communication between men and God, it doesn’t have to be a request or a petition! A prayer can be a sense of thankfulness or gracefulness to God. You care for God and love Him because He gave you a promise to have an eternal life. Should God promised nothing (and I mean nothing at all) many people would turn their back against God!
You know what your problem is? You are selfish and you don’t want to listen to anybody. You disagree my opinion and yet you are unable to answer the questions I gave you. I asked you many questions and all you can do is to justify your own opinions without giving the reasons.
Proverbs 17:15….all you can do is to judge people.
If you feel like you understand the Bible so much, please tell me, who was the man in Prov 8:22-36 “The Lord made me as the start of his way, the first of his works in the past. From eternal days I was given my place, from the birth of time, before the earth was…(please read until verse 36) “
Who was said as the firstborn of all creation in Colossians 1:15? “He is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all CREATION”
and many other questions for you and for anyone who believes Jesus is equal to God, where Jesus himself said THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I (John 14:28)
By the way, people in the Old Testament didn’t even know about the Trinity or even Jesus! Where was Jesus then? What was he doing during the OT era?
I am dying to know your answer!
Thank you
One more thing I forgot, you said
Revelation 3:12:
As in John 17:3, Jesus has a God. Do you think Jesus who has had a relationship with His Father for all eternity would come to earth and live as an atheist? He made Himself nothing, and willingly submits to His Father.
Jesus has a God which is the Father while He was on earth, yea I understand that… but Jesus has a God even when He’s already in heaven! Please read my previous comment regarding Revelation 3:2 and 3:12, where Jesus said “MY GOD” when he was referring to His Father for FIVE times!. Can you explain that?
“Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God.”
“Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God, and I will also write on him my new name.”
These verses tell us that Jesus was already in heaven and He was talking aabout His God for five times.
You said: “Why would Jesus accept worship if we’re only supposed to worship God?”
The word Worship (for Jesus), in hebrew is Proskuneo it shares the similar meaning as to honor actually. Even if Jesus is worshipped that is okay because His Father wants it to. Hebrew 1:5-6, God asked the angels to worship His Son, so it’s not a blasphemy, if men worship Jesus!
All that the Anonymous was trying to say: There is only one true God, and that is YHWH (the Father). Jesus is God but not the true God, because the children of God can also be called God as well, read John 10:35 where it says: “Jesus answered them: Is it not written in your law ‘I have said you are gods?’ – If he called them Gods to whom the words of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken) …..etc etc etc”
Jesus is the son of God (and to whom the words of God came in the NT, and please remember that), so he can also be called God but that does not make him the true God. Moses was called God in Exodus 7:1 and the children of the Most High are called Gods as well in Psalm 82:6. And how do you explain that Bill?
Matthew 5:9 says “Blessed all the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God”. So if the children (the sons) of the Most High (the True God) in Psalm 82:6 can also be called Gods, does this verse make us the True God as well? Isn’t the will to be like God, the will of the devil?
Thanks
God cannot just “forgive” He MUST punish the wicked.
if HE simply forgives the wicked, He Himself becomes an abomination – wicked
in the same way that if a human judge set free a convicted murder without serving justice.
the rightouse law DEMANDS that the sinner die (hence all the animal sacrifices)
the only way that God can forgive sinful man is if God Himself comes and pays the penalty. He Himself becomes the abomination in our place.
God, who made the law and DEMANDS its requirements came and paid the penalty.
JW’s say Jesus was a created being.
if that is true then we all are going to hell, because the only way that the law of God can be satisfied is BY God.
Anonymous,
I’m sorry if I haven’t answered all of your questions, but I’ve answered them repeatedly on this blog. I’ve posted many things disproving their line of thinking, and they will drop by with a very similar list of questions and verses that you have and I’ve responded to each. However, I’ve come to realize that answering a long list of questions doesn’t accomplish much.
I’ve come to realize that while it is interesting to debate the Bible, the old way of evangelism is the best way. The law is a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ (Galatians 3:24). You have to deal with a holy God on Judgment Day. Every thought word and deed will be accounted for. Every lie you’ve ever told was a transgression of God’s law, and a sin against an infinitely holy God. Every hateful thought makes you guilty of muder (1 John 3:15). Every lustful thought makes you guilty of adultery (Matt. 5:28). If Jesus is God, your denying Him makes you an antichrist and an idolater. How are your sins going to be atoned for? Is a Jesus with blood of less than infinite value adequate? Like Tom said, the only adequate payment for your sins against God is blood of infinite value.
All that being said, I’ll try to quickly answer your questions.
If there is only one true God, and you say Jesus isn’t Him, Jesus must be a false god, right? Or maybe Jesus is 99% true and 1% false? Do you think that’s what the Bible describes?
If you believe Jesus is a god, and the Father is a God, that is two gods, and you are a polytheist. Do you believe Jesus is a god or not?
Proverbs 8 is speaking of wisdom. To say that it applies to Jesus is to rip it out of context. Check Proverbs 8:2. Is Jesus female?
Firstborn means preeminent. David was referred to as the firstborn, but he wasn’t really the firstborn. Furthermore, Colossians 1 is great proof that Jesus is God, since He is the Creator (verse 16).
I’ve explained John 14:28. Jesus is the 2nd person of the Trinity. He obeys His Father. In some ways the Father is greater. That doesn’t mean Jesus isn’t God. Jesus is fully man and fully God.
Jesus was present in the Old Testament. No one can see the Father (John 6:46, 1 Tim. 6:16), but many people have seen Yahweh, such as in Genesis 18, Isaiah 6, etc. Think about it. Many people have seen Yahweh, but no one has seen the Father.
While it’s been very interesting, I only want to talk about the magnitude of our sins, and whose Jesus is adequate to make the payment from now on.
Thanks,
Bill
John,
If someone worships anyone other than the one true God, they are idolaters (Matthew 4:10, 1st and 2nd Commandments). If you worship Jesus and the Father, then there is no mistaking it, you’re a polytheist.
There is only one God. I have a long list of verses saying so, which you can look at: https://billphillips.wordpress.com/2007/11/02/how-many-gods-are-there/
That is a basic fundamental truth of the Bible. Any verse that might cause you to doubt that must be filtered through that truth.
Moses was God’s representative to Pharoh, as were the judges in Psalm 82, as are we. We are not gods, only God’s representatives.
Jesus received worship, forgave sins, raised Himself from the dead, performed miracles, and over and over claimed to be God. You have to work this out for yourself, but if you’re wrong about who Jesus is you will spend eternity in hell (John 8:24).
Thanks,
Bill
Okay this debate will never be over LOL.
If there is only one true God, and you say Jesus isn’t Him, Jesus must be a false god, right? Or maybe Jesus is 99% true and 1% false? Do you think that’s what the Bible describes?
I never said Jesus was a false God, what makes you think I’d say such thing? All I’m saying is that there is only ONE TRUE GOD, and that is YHWH, the Father. (and I believe that I have said this many times before)
If you believe Jesus is a god, and the Father is a God, that is two gods, and you are a polytheist. Do you believe Jesus is a god or not?
I BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD! He (Jesus) said that himself. The reason why Jesus is called God is because the children of God can also be called Gods (I believe I have explained this to you), and that does not make Jesus the true God, because all his authority is given by his Father, and I believe I have said this many times before.
Proverbs 8 is speaking of wisdom. To say that it applies to Jesus is to rip it out of context. Check Proverbs 8:2. Is Jesus female?
In heaven, only the spirits live (Romans 8:8), so it does not matter whether wisdom should be called as a female or a male. In spanish language, there are things which should be called as females and there are things which should be called as males, and how do you explain that, when a spanish guy calls fried potatoes as females? – Papas fritas (female), not papas fritos (male)!
You are being out of th context! You haven’t explained to me who the wisdom is in Proverbs 8:22! Check Proverbs 8:36 when it says “But whoever fails to find me harms himself, and all who hate me love death” Jesus is often reffered as the wisdom! He is the bearer of God’s words, and it is clear that whoever hates Jesus, loves death!
I’m being an antichrist? Never! 1 John 2:22 says “Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ – He denies the Father AND the Son”
I do not deny the Father. I even believe the Father is the True God. and…
I do not deny the Son, because I truly believe the Son is The Christ. The word “Christ” means “messenger or messiah” in old Greek language (Christos). I truly believe that Jesus is the only authorised messenger from God, to whom God has given the power to judge men (John 12:49-50)! and how does that make me an ANTICHRIST? You tell me!
Tom Harvey, if Jesus was there from the first place (and not created) and if Jesus is also the true God, then it means there are two Gods!, because the Father and Jesus are 2 different people. Acts 7:56, Stephen saw Jesus standing on the right side of God in Heaven, if Jesus is God, he should be seeing one person only!
Bill Phillips, you haven’t answer my question regarding Rev 3:2 and 3:12 where Jesus speaks of His God for five times, and Jesus is already in heaven!
(1) Jesus received worship, forgave sins, raised Himself from the dead, performed miracles, and over and over claimed to be God. You have to work this out for yourself, but if you’re wrong about who Jesus is you will spend eternity in hell (John 8:24).
The people in the OT did not worship Jesus, they never asked anything in the name of Jesus either! He wasn’t even born! And what does that make them? Remember, Abraham, Noah, and many others didn’t even know that a Lord will come to earth by the name of Jesus when they were alive, and they prayed to YHWH. Does that make them idolaters?. If you look closely at the old greek translation of the bible, the word worship for Jesus is Proskuneo (actually proskuneo means to honor), while the word worship for God is Latruo! But the newly translated bible (any translation nowadays) put the same meaning for both context as to worship!
(2) Jesus received worship, forgave sins, raised Himself from the dead, performed miracles…etc…etc…etc WELL, WHO GAVE THE AUTHORITY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH? – You never answer this question either!
By the way, Jesus never raised himself from the dead. He WAS RAISED.
Matthew 16:21 – “From that time on, Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests, and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day BE RAISED to life”
Luke 9:22 – “And he said, “The Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, chief priests, and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day BE RAISED to life”
Acts 2:24 – “But God RAISED HIM from the dead, freeing him from agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him”
Acts 2:27 – “Because you (the Father) will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One (Jesus) see decay”
Acts 2:32 – “God HAS RAISED this Jesus to life, and we are all witness of the fact”
Acts 3:15 – “You killed the author of life, but God RAISED him from the dead. We are witness of this.”
Acts 5:30 – “The God of our fathers RAISED Jesus from the dead – whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree”
Acts 10:40 – “But God RAISED him from the dead on the third day and caused him to be seen.”
Acts 13:30, Acts 13:34, Acts 13:37, Romans 6:4, Romans 8:11, and many others!
If Jesus is God, why didn’t he raised himself? You do know that he raised Lazarus. If raising Lazarus would make people believe that Jesus is God, imagine what kind of impact it will give to all people if Jesus raised himself !, so why didn’t Jesus raised himself? Please explain this to me.
The word YHWH was written in the old greek translation for over 6000 times! Do check it if you have time, it is being held at a museum in London (I think it is in London but I’m not so sure, but do check it if you have time).
Thanks
I’m sorry, correction everyone, the word YHWH was written in Hebrew (Old Testament) not Greek and Yes it’s written for over 600 times!, and it’s been erased :(
One more thing, you said “Moses was God’s representative to Pharoh, as were the judges in Psalm 82, as are we. We are not gods, only God’s representatives.”
If the word GODS in Psalm 82:6 – “You are gods; all of you are the sons of the Most High” are considered as God’s representatives, what does it make Jesus, when Jesus is often reffered as God according to you? Who are you to say that the word GODS in Psalm 82:6 and GOD in Exodus 7:1 means GOD’S REPRESENTATIVES while the word GOD for Jesus means the TRUE GOD? Those words in both verses are the same “ELOYHIM” which means God not God’s representatives.
Thank you.
wow! that proverbs 17:15 comment is incredible! i notice that this anonymous guy has NO retort for it…. touche’ !
Luke 6:40 – “A student is not above his teacher, but everyone who is fully trained will be like his teacher”
Jesus is often reffered as a teacher by his twelve disciples, and we both know that everyone who is fully tranined will be like his teacher (according to Luke 6:40), and if you say Jesus is God, does this verse mean that the 12 disciples can be like God?
1 John 3:2 – “Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is”
That he is Jesus, and if Jesus is the true God, then this verse means WE CAN ALL BE LIKE THE TRUE GOD! Don’t you think it is way too much? If we will see Jesus as he is (and if “as he is” means “as the True God”), we will definitely become like the True God! and that is so … I don’t even know….you tell me….
Since the beginning of the book of Matthew, we found many people calling Jesus as Lord. If Lord means God, why all the 12 disciples who were on the same boat with Jesus were full of wonder by saying ‘what sort of man is this that even the winds and the sea do his orders?‘ (Matthew 8:27) – If they already knew that Jesus was God that came in flesh (because previous verses tell us that the 12 disciples and many others have already been calling Jesus as Lord and teacher), they should not have been worried at all!
They worried not because they had less faith in God, they worried because Jesus claimed to be the son of God, and it’s very difficult for the 12 disciples to believe Jesus! Check this out:
Minutes later after Jesus’s death, the curtain of the temple was town in two from top to bottom, the earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. When the centurion and those with him who were guarding Jesus saw the earthquake and all that had happened, they were terrified and exclaimed: SURELY HE WAS THE SON OF GOD!” (Matthew 27:54)
Even the soldiers believed Jesus is the son of god. Why didn’t the soldiers exclaim: “Surely he was God!” – if Jesus REALLY equalized himself as God –
I would LOVE to hear your explanation to this matter and to both of those verses I have written above.
Thanks, and I apologize (again) for commenting for the 3rd times on a single batch
Anonymous,
This is a hypothitical situation, so I appreciate your playing along. If someone was stabbed in the back and was bleeding to death, and managed to find their way to your house and ring your door bell, and said, “I’ve lived a horribly sinful life. I only have a few minutes to live. I’m scared of what’s going to happen to me when I die. What must I do to have my sins forgiven?” What would you tell him to do in the last 3 minutes of his life to get to heaven/paradise earth?
Thanks,
Bill
I’d pray to God that He would help this man and I will definitely tell him to calm down and no need to panic, and I’d go to call an ambulance, and the police too. About forgiving sins and going to heaven when he dies, let God decide…it is beyond my power and everyone else’s. I am not the “all-knowing” person.
I think that is what every sane person would do in this kind of situation.
Thanks.
I don’t think Jesus had ever said with his own tongue that He was God or equal to God (His Father)! Show me just one verse where Jesus said with his own tongue that he is equal to God. He even said the Father is greater than I!
Jesus is worshipped both while He was on earth (Matt. 28:9), and in heaven (Hebrews 1:6, Revelation 5:11-14). Yet, He said worship only the Lord God (Matthew 4:10). If you don’t see Jesus being worshipped in your Bible, you’re using a bad translation.
I am not using a bad translation (all verses I have presented on this blog is according to the NEW INTERNATIONAL TRANSLATION). I see many verses that says Jesus being worshipped, but the problem is: Did Jesus ever ask one? John 5:41 says that Jesus does not accept praise from men! (try to look for this verse on any other translation please and tell me what it says) and how do you explain that Bill? The reason why Jesus being worshipped is because the Father asks His angels to worship His Son! (Hebrew 1:6)
Hebrew 1:2 – “but in these last days he (the Father) has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things and through whom (Jesus) he (the Father) made the universe.” What do you think of this verse?
Hebrew 1:3 – “The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word….etc…etc…etc”
Ah I see, you say Jesus is equal to God by seeing this verse, ok I got it. Take a look at Genesis 1:26 – “Then God said,”Let us make a man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea…etc…etc…etc ”
Of couse Jesus is the exact representation of God, so are we because we are created based on God’s own image, and HIS LIKENESS!
By seeing Hebrew 1:3, then it does make sense if we all can be called Gods, by reading this verse: “You are gods; all of you are the sons of the Most High” (Psalm 82:6). But that does not mean we are the true God! The Father is the true God, and that is it.
Thanks
Anonymous,
So a dying man asks you how to have his sins forgiven, and all you have to offer him is to tell him not to panic? After having time to think and respond in writing to my question, that is the best you can come up with? You’ll forgive me if I assume you have no idea how to get your sins forgiven, or if your answer is completely wrong, since it can’t be done in three minutes. The thief hanging on the cross was mocking Jesus at first, and later repented and put his faith in Jesus. Jesus assured him that he would be with Jesus that day in paradise. What good deeds did the thief perform while hanging on the cross?
The answer on how to get your sins forgiven is to:
1. repent
2. put your faith in Jesus.
Whether you have 3 minutes or 50 years to live that is the answer. If that isn’t your answer, then you’re not really trusting in Jesus alone, and you’re not born again. Would you say you’re born again? The penalty for your sins is infinite. God must make sure that justice is served for every scintilla of your sin. How is this going to happen? How are your sins going to be forgiven?
Thanks,
Bill
You know what, you are a funny man. Tell me, what if it was your mom who was stabbed? Would you tell her to repent, or would you rather to call for an ambulance and tell her not to get panic? Read James 2:26. Trusting Jesus alone, and letting this guy bleeding to death are 2 different things!
So a dying man asks you how to have his sins forgiven, and all you have to offer him is to tell him not to panic?
If I have a chance to save someone from death, I would certainly do that! If someone was shot right in front of your eyes, would you tell him to repent, or would you go find some help ?
You know this is a trick question, my answer can not be the foundation for your own justification. How do you know if I end up being punished in hell, if you don’t even know for sure where you are going to be in yourself!
The reason why this guy who with jesus (on a cross) was forgiven is because Jesus knew how his heart was! He truly repented and believed in Jesus that he will come into his kingdom (Luke 23:42) The problem with you is: You don’t even know if this guy truly put his faith in Jesus or not, for you can’t read people’s mind.
When Jesus asked people to have faith, what kind of faith was it? What is it that Jesus wanted us to believe? Of what matter? Did Jesus want us to believe that He’s God, or did Jesus want us to believe that he is the son of God? Whose kingdom did Jesus want us to tell the world? is it His Father’s, or is it his own kingdom?
Thanks.
Anonymous,
This is a hypothetical situation. I asked you to play along, and said the guy has three minutes to live. The guy will be long since dead before the ambulance arrives, and besides that, eternity is much more important than this life. We need our sins forgiven more than we need our next breath. This hypothetical guy is going to slip off into hell, and you have nothing to offer him.
I know for certain that I’m going to heaven (1 John 5:13, Romans 8:16). If you don’t have assurance of where you’re going, that is a very strong indication that you’re in trouble. Those who have been reborn into God’s family receive the testimony of the Spirit that they are God’s children. If you don’t have that assurance, you remain dead in your sins, and a child of the devil.
What are you going to do to get the infinite penalty for your sins paid?
Thanks,
Bill
If you do know for CERTAIN that you will go to heven, then this conversation is no longer required. I pray to God that you do go to heaven as you believe.
The moslem that did the 9/11 also believed that they’d go to heaven. In fact, it is written in their holy scripture that if they do jihad they’d go to heaven, and I suggest you to meet them in heaven.
Believing and doing are 2 different things!
My God your teaching is badly deceived. Have you not read that faith without deeds is dead? (James 2:26). What is it that you do that’s so GREAT? Ask yourself this question.
If you go to heaven, then where will those 144.000 go? The ones that did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. The ones who follow the Lamb whereever he goes. The ones whom no lie was found in their mouths, the ones that are blameless (Revelation 14:1)? Will they go to the “second floor” of heaven?
How can you know for sure that you are going to heaven? You’re crazy, even Paul did not know for sure whether he’s going to heaven or not! (1 Corinthians 9:27)
Repentance is the only thing for you. Thanks
Bill,
James 2:14-24 (New International Translation) :
What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food, if one of you says to him: “Go, I wish you well, keep warm and well fed”, but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
But someone will say, “You have faith, I have deeds”
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that – and shudder
You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? Was not your ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. And the scripture was fulfilled that says;
“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness”, and he was called God’s friend. You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
Pay attention to the lines that I have bolded!
So what do we have here?
You have faith in Jesus that he would save you – GOOD!
You are so certain that you will go to heaven – EVEN BETTER! But the problem is:
what is it that you do so great, that makes you believe you’d go to heaven?, what is it that you do so great that Jesus would come and save you? (have you asked these questions to yourself lately?)
Bill, faith without deeds is essentially dead!
Anonymous,
It’s clear that you don’t understand the predicament your sin has placed you in.
Sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). Here is the law–the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20).
1. You shall have no other gods before me.
2. You shall not make a graven image.
3. You shall not take the name of the LORD in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.
5. Honor your mother and father.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not lie.
10. You shall not covet.
If you’re honest with yourself you must admit that you’ve broken all ten of them. Jesus said if you’ve ever looked at a woman with lust, you’ve committed adultery with her in your heart (Matt 5:27-28). If you’ve ever called someone a name, you are guilty of muder (Matt. 5:21-22). Do you agree you’ve broken all ten in spirit if not in letter?
You’ve broken God’s holy and perfect law. Just like any guilty criminal, you deserve to be punished. In fact, God must punish you, or He is unjust. When you break the law, you sin against an infinitely holy God, therefore your punishment is infinite. Even if you’ve only ever told one lie in your life, you’re deserving of infinite punishment (Romans 6:23, Revelation 21:8).
When God hands down your infinite punishment, what will you say? Do you really think your good deeds make up for your sin? Even attempting to offer that is bribery. You must have ever penny’s worth of your infinite fine paid, or you will pay it yourself. Your Jesus isn’t adequate to pay your fine. You need the true Jesus, whose blood is of infinite value.
Either you have Jesus’ infinite blood or you don’t. If you have it, in this life, you will do good deeds out of gratitude, and you’ll do them automatically (Eph. 2:10). If you don’t have that blood, your good deeds are nothing more than bribery and filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6).
I’m certain I’m going to heaven, because the Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God (Romans 8:16). While I have good works, I have never done anything for even a fraction of a second that would make Jesus want to save me. As a guilty criminal there is nothing I could ever do to make up for my evil crimes against God. I will never deserve to be saved or go to heaven.
Please go through each of the Ten Commandments, and think about how badly you’ve blown it. Think about how many times you’ve looked at someone and had a sexual thought, or disobeyed and dishonored your parents. Every time you even have an evil thought you’ve broken God’s law. If you can do that and not be completely heart broken over how evil you are, then I guess I have nothing else to offer.
Thanks,
Bill
Do you really think your good deeds make up for your sin?
Well, actually it is written here: 1 Peter 4:8 “Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins”
Everybody is a liar (Romans 3:4), that is why your good deeds will be added as righteousness (James 2:14-24).
If you say just by believing in Jesus then you are forgiven, then heaven will be full of people just like you, ones who do nothing at all. This is insane, you’re saying good deeds won’t do any good against sin and that is against the bible, because the bible says the otherwise.
Many people were forgiven by Jesus (for example the prostitute who was about to get stoned) in the NT, but it DOES NOT mean they will go to heaven.
Bill, you can not put yourself on the same scenario as the man who was on crucified next to Jesus! He was on a cross for crying out loud, and you aren’t. That man could not do anything more, the only thing he could was to have faith. But you, you walk as freely as a bird, the theory can not be applied to you, because if it can, then God is not fair at all! If by believing in Jesus alone people will go to heaven, where will those who do good deeds go? For it cannot be the same destination because the ones who good deeds work harder than the ones who only believe! Are you saying that God is not fair?
If you read the holy bible from page 1 to the end, it tells you about a great number of people who do good deeds to God! They don’t just believe that there is God, but they commit actions to realize their believe (faith). Take a look at Moses, Abraham, Noah, Elijah, and many many others.
I’m certain I’m going to heaven, because the Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God (Romans 8:16). While I have good works
OK. that’s arrogancy not faith…but I still respect your opinion.
Thanks
You know what, you’re smart. We weren’t talking about this before. We were discussing about whether Jesus is the true God or not. Somehow I feel that you’re only trying to find my mistakes!
Just because I believe that there is one true God (YHWH) and He is different from Jesus, does not mean I understand the whole bible. I will be making some mistakes here and there regarding some things and it can not be used as the base to prove that Jesus is the true God. You’re not even able to give explanations on my first 5 comments.
Everybody is running / competing towards an everlasting life (1 Cor 9:24-27), if you are so sure that you’d get it eventually, I suggest to go for it! for your competition has ended and you’ve become a winner.
My point is…if you are so sure that you will go to heaven eventually, why are you still here? Take a look at the world nowdays, wars, sufferings, famine. Why didn’t you ask Jesus to take your life and send your spirit to heven? We both know that if you ask anything in Jesus’s name, he will do it. You said you have faith, you said that you have the blood of Jesus, and you said you are certain that you’d go to heaven. Well, heaven is nice, it’s the best place, so the next time you pray, ask Jesus to take your life.
Dear Anonymous,
You are absolutely correct if you believe the following:
John 17:3:
3 Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
I have just read some of your posts- not all- but have seen for myself that Bill has not answered your questions and misrepresented the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. I am not a JW, RC, Pentecostalist, Charismatic, Baptist, Protestant, or from any of the other denominations, I am simply a Christian of the body of Christ. Don’t lose heart, keep the faith.
I wish you peace in the name of God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ
God and a Savior; there is none but me (Isa. 45:21).
his Son to be the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14).
Please see and respond to my posts which are at the end of this page.
Anonymous,
This conversation isn’t going to work if you don’t read what I write. I never said I don’t have good deeds. You’re the one who says I don’t have good deeds, which is kind of strange, because I don’t have any idea who you are, we’ve never met, and you really have no idea what I do or don’t do. I do good deeds, not to get saved, but because I am saved. God has prepared these good works for me to do, and I walk in them (Eph 2:10).
Furthermore, you’re either missing my point, which I thought I made eloquently in my last comment, or you’re terribly confused. Good deeds do not make up for sin. Blood is the only payment accepted for the atonement of sin (Leviticus 17:11, Hebrews 9:22). Jesus said He’s the only way to the Father (John 14:6), not good deeds plus Jesus.
If you’re trying to offer good deeds to persuade God to forgive you, you’re trying to bribe the Judge, and that only adds to your sin.
Jesus explains this quite simply in Matthew 7. You don’t produce good fruit to become a good tree. You produce good fruit because you are a good tree. When you are born again, you will produce good fruit.
I want to go to heaven, and I want to go there now, as the apostle Paul did (2 Cor. 5:8-9). However, I have died to myself and live for God. I will stay here as long as He wants me to.
Thanks,
Bill
Nobody’s missing anyone’s point here Bill, it’s just that you and I have different opinions regarding what we’re discussing here. You said good deeds do not make up for sin, but the verse says the otherwise.
When a man is born again, and when that particular man has accepted Jesus, it does not mean that the person we are talking about will automatically be producing good fruit. I know a lot ot people who have been “born again” and they are still sinning! And there are tremendous amount of people who live their entire life according to the scripture and at the end they commit a sin.
When a person is doing one good deed, that does not mean this person is going to bribe God by using that one good deed he did, you got it absolutely wrong. When a man is doing good deeds, is because God commands us to. The scripture says that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone, and that is why I dare to say that good deeds do make up for a sin.
Everbody wants to go to heaven and I truly understand that, but Jesus is the only path towards it. When Jesus said that…it does not mean by faith alone, but what he meant was by doing all the things he’s been doing for faith without deeds is essentially dead. Faith in Jesus alone will not save a man.
The way I understand your point is like this:
A man kills a lot of people, and when he gets sick and he’s about to die, he truly believes in Jesus, at the last minute he’s got baptized and then he will certainly go to heaven. Is that it? If this is your point, then God is terribly unjust!
If this is not your point, please explain, may be I got it wrong :)
PS: I’m not american and english is not my language, so please pardon my lack of ability in understanding you.
Anonymous,
Your English is excellent, and I just assumed it was your first language. Where are you from?
Your sins have earned you an infinite penalty (Daniel 12:2, Revelation 14:11). What good deed do you propose will pay your infinite penalty? If someone murdered one of you loved ones, and the judge let the murderer go free because he’s volunteered and done a lot of good deeds, would you be happy with that? Good deeds don’t make up for breaking man’s laws, why would you think God is wicked enough to accept good deeds as payment for sins?
Bribery is offering the judge of your case something in return for favorable treatment. Good deeds are performed for the glory of God, out of gratitude for what He has done. You can attempt to bribe God by performing good deeds so that He will forgive your sins. Bribery is a sin. The “good deeds” you perform to earn God’s favor are actually not good deeds, but sins.
Here’s another analogy from the Bible that I hope will help. We are born (spiritually) dead in our sins (Eph. 2:1). What good deed can a dead man perform? God raises us from the dead (Eph 2:4-5), making us born again. What good deed can the dead man perform to raise himself from the dead? Once we are born again, we are then able to do good deeds, and obey God’s commandments (Eph 2:10).
If you are trying to get salvation by obeying the law, you are under a curse (Galatians 3:10). You should read the entire book of Galatians.
Someone once asked Jesus what good deed they must perform for God. Jesus said, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent” (John 6:28-29). If you must work your way into heaven, that is the work you can perform. Don’t add anything to that, or you’re disagreeing with Jesus, and placing yourself under a curse.
Thanks,
Bill
I’m from Indonesia.
We are born spiritually, yes I can understand that…but when one is reborn, that does not mean that this person will be sin-proof. A reborn man can commit a sin too (Hebrew 6:4-6).
If you are trying to get salvation by obeying the law, you are under a curse (Galatians 3:10). You should read the entire book of Galatians.
No no, you got me wrong…all I’m saying is a good deed can also be added as righteousness!
A man truly believes in Jesus, gets baptized, “feels reborn”….that’s good, but he is not kind to people and treats his family bad…will this man be saved? I don’t think so.
We are saved is because God’s mercy is on us, and we call it God’s grace (Romans 6:14). Everyone who believes in Jesus, whether they’re reborn or not can still commit a sin. But…a good deed can still be counted as righteousness, for God is fair.
Even the devil believes that Jesus is the son of God (Read Matthew 4 where he calls Jesus as the son of God), but does the devil obey God’s command? I don’t think so.
When the first time I commented on this subject, I believe the topic was whether Jesus is equal to God (his Father) or not, and now, we have gone too far from it :)
But that’s ok, I truly enjoy talking to you. I would love to know about you more and all your theories. Wish you all the best.
Thanks.
Anonymous,
Yes, born again people sin. However, they no longer live a lifestyle of sin (1 John 3). If someone lives a lifestyle of treating their family bad, they aren’t born again, no matter what they say. The New Testament talks quite a bit about false converts–those who think they’re born again, but really aren’t (Mark 4). Most people who say they’re Christians (at least in America) aren’t.
When Jesus spoke of believing in Him, He wasn’t just talking about a mental assent to certain beliefs. He was speaking of a life-changing, repentant belief, a belief that leads to action. You must die to yourself, take up your cross and follow Jesus (Matthew 10:37-39). This type of repentance is a gift from God (Acts 11:18).
If you’re saying you must have Jesus plus good deeds in order to be saved, that is not trusting in Christ alone. It is trusting in Christ and yourself. If you let yourself be circumcised (or whatever other good deed you think is required, such as baptism), you must keep the entire law perfectly (Galatians 5:3). Again, you don’t produce fruit to become a fruit tree. You produce fruit because you are a fruit tree. The fruit is proof that you are a fruit tree, but only God is responsible for your becoming a fruit tree.
Thanks,
Bill
Hi,
Well, eveyrthing you have written does not change the fact that the Father is greater than Jesus and Jesus does not accept praise from men (John 5:41), while his Father requires our total devotion (the 10 commandments).
Jesus is the “only” mediator between God and men (1 Timothy 2:5 & 1 John 2:1).
Everything that Jesus did on earth was in accordance to his Father (John 5:30-32 & John 12:49-50).
Jesus was given the full authority in heaven and on earth by his Father (Matthew 28:18).
If Jesus is God himself, he would never speak of his God in Rev 3:2 & 3:12, because those verses tell us that Jesus does have a God, which is his Father.
Jesus is the word (John 1:1) that comes out from the mouth of God, but Jesus himself is not the Father. Whenever the Father speaks, His “voice / words” comes out, and that word is transofrmed into a man name Jesus.
By the way, the word is created and controlled by the person who is speaking. You create a word whenever you speak right? Even a single tone is produced / created, and that is why men are judged according to what they say (I’m absolutely positive that there is a verse for this but I can’t remember where).
The only “true” God is the Father, through His only Son (Jesus a.k.a. “the word”) God created earth and everything inside. The Father will never give His glory to anyone else (Isaiah 48:11), and Jesus has his own glory and Jesus asked the Father to glorify him (John 17:5).
Thanks.
Because of the political interest in the ancient Rome the verse in John 1:1 “the word was God’s” was changed into “the word was God”.
Thanks
PS: I will “try” not post any other comments, because I have told you everything I know. It’s been my honor to have this conversation with you :) – See you later, and wish you all the best.
anonymous did a lot of shuffling & jiving, though never answered the greatest dilema in the bible….Proverbs 17:15
see my post above for explanation
Proverbs 17:15 – “Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent – the Lord detests them both”
Your previous comment was proverbs 17:15 is a passage that destroys JW belief.
Jesus could not have been a created being according to this verse….
according to this verse, if they are right, then there is no hope
OK, Mr. Tom Harvey, I am not a member of the JWs, and I believe I have said this many many times before! You have to read all my comments before judging me. That verse is not even relevant to what I have posted.
If you feel like you know the bible so much, well do please tell me your theories and don’t you just judge people without giving the proper explanation!
If Jesus was not created then the conclusion is that there are 2 true Gods, because Jesus and his Father are 2 different people.
If Jesus was not created then who was the “wisdom” in Proverbs 8:22? According to Bill, that wisdom is female (Proverbs 8:1) so it can’t be Jesus, well I say…it does not matter because Israel was considered as female in Jeremiah 49:1. Was Israel a woman? I don’t think so!
Jesus is “the word”, and through this “word”, God the Father created the universe. Jesus is the manifestation of God’s words, but Jesus himself is not the Father. Do you have something to disagree with this?
No one has ever seen God in person (face to face), so only by hearing His “words” (a.k.a Jesus) we know that God exists, and that is it! If one does not have faith in Jesus, that means that person does not believe that God exists!
My whole explanation can be read clearly by scrolling your computer screen upwards.
Thanks.
Tom Harvey,
Isaiah 48:9-11 (New International Translation) says:
“For my own name’s sake I delay my wrath; for the sake of my praise I hold it back from you, so as not to cut you off. See, I have refined you, though not as silver; I have tested you in the furnace of affliction. For my own sake, for my own sake I do this. How can I let myself defamed? I will not yield my glory to another”
Whose name is it according to those verses above? Please tell me.
no answers from these people?
it’s funny….just more and more questions….they cannot/will not answer the biggest problem in the bible!
Proverbs 17:15.
you guys are toast! if Jesus is not God and just a “created” being then God justifying Him was an abomination.
only God could bare the wrath for the sins of man.
repent and believe while there is time
if Jesus was a created being….there is no hope!
Anonymous,
Tom has a point. You don’t answer his question, and keep throwing out more and more questions and accuse us of not being able to answer your questions. Not only that, but you insist on not accurately portraying the Trinity. Trinitarians don’t believe that Jesus is the Father.
I’ve actually answered your questions dozens of times in various locations, but I’m tempted to answer them again, even though it will do no good. Your problem isn’t points of doctrine, but that you don’t see how sinful you are.
You brought up something interesting, and I would like to correct you. Many people have seen Yahweh face to face. Abraham in Genesis 18, Jacob in Genesis 32, Isaiah in Isaiah 6, and on and on. So again, many people have seen Yahweh, but no one has seen the Father (John 6:46).
I’ll spell out the doctrine of the Trinity for you. I realize it can be difficult to understand. Jesus is Yahweh. The Father is Yahweh. The Holy Spirit is Yahweh. Yet, Jesus is not the Father is not the Holy Spirit. There is one God in three persons. Hopefully in the future, you can argue against the true doctrine of the Trinity, and not a bad misunderstanding of it.
John,
Yahweh will not yield His glory to another, but Jesus shared His Father’s glory before the world began (John 17:5). Jesus has the name that is above all others (Philippians 2:9), and no other name has been given among men by which we must be saved. Are you trusting in some other name than Jesus’ name for your salvation?
Thanks,
Bill
Noone has ever seen God face to face in NT. That is why God gave Jesus (his words) to us.
– I truly understand everything you guys have said.
Of all my comments from the first time I put it here, can be concluded into a single line: The Father is the true God, through his Son (Jesus a.k.a. the word) God created the universe and everything in it.
You have to read the hebrew and the greek version of the bible, and search for the word “theos” and “eloyhim”, and by that point your comments would differ.
Arguing over the bible is pointless, there are so many verses can be used to “attack” each and everyone of us, but please… please do make a research regarding those words in the hebrew and greek version of the bible, and you will get amazed of how different our bible from the old version really is. God’s name never change, whether you see him in the OT or the NT. God is eternal.
There will be no more questions from now on, because I know you will never be able to answer them. Tom, Jesus has a God when he’s in heaven (Rev 3:2 & 3:12), please do remember that. If Jesus is the second person of the trinity, he should have said “my Father” instead of “my God” and I KNOW you will NEVER be able to explain this to me.
Jesus does not accept praise from men (John 5:41), and yes he’s being worshipped and praised but Jesus never:
whispered,
asked,
told,
begged,
or even…
commanded – us to worship him. He told us to worship God the Father (Matthew 4:10, Deut 6:13).
Matthew 1:13 says: But go and LEARN what this means, ‘I desire mercy not sacrifice, for I have not come to call the righteous but sinners’
Bill asks “Are you trusting in some other name than Jesus’ name for your salvation?”
My answer is: NO. I trust in Jesus alone, because he is the only path to his Father.
Trusting in Jesus means doing everything he’s done. Jesus has put an example for all of us, and he asked us to follow him (everything he has done on earth, such as deny ourselves, take the cross, and believe that he is the Son of God, please figure it out yourself what that means). TRUST in Jesus in this case, means love one another, doing righteous deeds, help the poor and so on. FAITH THAT LEADS TO ACTIONS. That is what trust in Jesus means.
All that Jesus wanted was for us to believe that he’s the Son of God, and there is eternal life through him.
My God is still Jesus’ Father / Jesus’ God (the same God of Abraham’s, Isaac’s, and Jacob’s), and will always be.
Thanks.
One question for you: What is trust in Jesus according to you? (I know I said that there won’t be anymore questions but I just can’t help it)
Firstly, I am not a JW but a Christian. I started research on this topic because my son started dating a JW girl. I am not well spoken enough to start arguments (also because english is not my first language). I just want to know, why are so many JW (seemingly)embarrased by their “religion”? And from what I’ve read so far, the founders of JW religion were directly connected to freemasons and even satanism. One of the founders actually has a piramid as his headstone on his grave. Please help me understand how anyone could get involved in a religion based on the above.
Alright Tom,
1 John 3:2 says “Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he (Jesus) appears, we shall be like him (like Jesus), for we shall see him (Jesus) as he (Jesus) is”
Everybody in this room says Jesus equals to his Father, in essence that Jesus is Yahweh nonetheless, according to this verse that we shall see him as he is and we shall be like him, does this mean we can be like God? Because wow, I really want to be like God.
I would really really appreciate, if Tom could explain this for me ….P…L…E…A…S…E….
Thanks
Oh, and….Tom….
please do it A.S.A.P. because I haven’t got all day!
why ask me? all i did was go to some solid comentaries online and got some good solid
stuff… try it! i suggest http://www.searchgodsword.com or hear many sermons to crush your
beleifs at sermonaudio.com/
you see there are people much better suited to dispell the cultic teachings , BUT!!!! nowhere, never, has there been a JW (or whatever) who can answer my question!!! therefore…i win this debate hands down.
Jesus is God! proverbs 17:15 proves it and there is no smoke screen thick enuf for ya’ll to hide behind.
i guess this forum is closed
repent and believe b4 it’s too late.
if Jesus was a created being then we all go to hell
John,
Your comments remain here at my mercy. You will treat everyone with respect, or your comments will be deleted. This is your only warning.
Tom can feel free to answer your question, but here’s my answer, since you’re in such a hurry. We shall be like Jesus in that our bodies will be glorified. There will be no more sickness or pain, and we will be able to obey God. Romans 8:23 says that even though we have been born again, we eagerly wait for our bodies to be glorified, which will happen when we see Jesus.
1 John 3:1 says everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God. Would you say you’re born again/born of God?
Thanks,
Bill
1 John 3:1 says everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God.
The word “christ” means messiah / messenger, try look it up. I treat you and everyone else with full respect, please keep that in mind. I know I was way too overreacted and I apologize.
The reason why the Anonymous always gave questions is for you guys to think, nothing else. She gave you some things (questions) to consider. Actually she already knew all the answers to her own questions.
1 John 3:2 is so clear, there’s no denial for that, for we can be like Jesus when we see him as he is. If everyone thinks that Jesus is God, that means we can all be like God.
When she said created, she meant produced. God produced his voice (words) has the similar meaning as God spoke his words. It’s not like when a person created something out of nothing, but it is more like “God is talking” and when he speaks he produces words and/or sentences that manifests into a man we know as Jesus. If God does not speak at all, he will be the same as statues, and we all be idolaters.
God the Father gives rules and regulations to humans, and it’s all through his only Son, Jesus (the word). In the OT era, God gave all his orders, rules, etc… through prophets, but now He did it through Jesus only (God’s own word who came into flesh, into a man we know as Jesus, His only authorized messenger). But God is still the same God we know in the OT. The same God of Abraham’s, Isaac’s, and Jacob’s. The only God they worshipped.
The Anonymous writings is about who the real God is, nothing else, and that God is still the same God we know in the OT, for God is eternal.
Nobody is winning anything, all we did was telling the real facts that’s written in the bible. I do not feel like I have won anything. I have, no…we (The Anonymous and I) have told you guys many times, to try look it up for the word “ELOYHIM, and THEOS”in the old Hebrew and Greek version of the bible, and I am sure your comments will differ by then.
Thanks, and my apology to Tom :)
Hello,
When the bible says that “Before Abraham was made, there was I”, it means that God’s word is already there, together with God. The same word that created earth, the same word that ceated everything we see. It wasn’t Jesus, but it was God’s word because in the OT, Jesus wasn’t even born. Jesus is the manifestation of God’s words in the NT. Jesus is the humanic name given by God for his own word in the NT.
Our God is God that speaks. God that’s alive. He is not just a statue.
Our God is still the same, whether it’s in OT or NT.
There is eternal life through Jesus means there is eternal life through God’s word. Matthew 4:4 says “Then Jesus answered: It is written that Man does not live on bread alone, but on every WORD that comes from the mouth of God”
Jesus is God’s words, the word that came into a man (John 1:1), but God himself is still God the Father.
Thanks.
the defense rests!
“In your lives you must think and act like Christ Jesus. Christ himself was like God in everything. Christ was equal with God…”
Those are the first 2 sentences I found in http://www.searchgodsword.com under WHAT JESUS DID! in Daily Devotionals section.
I find it funny to believe, that the person who wrote this suggest us to act like God. So how in the world can we act and think like God? God’s thoughts can not be understood by anyone. We can not even describe how God works and thinks, how his mind works.
This is outrageous.
Eveyone keeps saying that Jesus is equal to his Father, and I do not blame them. All I did was just giving the verses that describe the otherwise, but they just don’t want to listen. Bill and Tom also disagree to my explanations, and that’s okay too.
Everyone please read Hebrew 1:1-14. This tell us that Jesus is the Son of God, and the God is still his Father, the same God of Abraham’s, Isaac’s, and Jacob’s. Jesus is the manifestation of God’s words. Jesus (a.k.a. the word) has been together with God since the beginning of time.
Jesus is the wisdom in Proverbs 8:22 only that time Jesus was still “the word”. The first “word” that came (or was born) out from God’s mouth from the very beginning (Proverbs 8:24 – and that is also why Jesus is called the firstborn of all creations in Collosians 1:15, because he’s the same “word” that came from the mouth of God which created the universe in Genesis 1:1)
The word is controlled by the person who’s speaking, that is why Jesus always said that: “everything I do, I do it according to my Father’s order”.
God is eternal, and he is always the same whether it’s in the OT or NT, he never change!
Thank you for giving some time to read my comments.
VERDICT: according to proverbs 17:15….Jesus is God!
no-one has been able to explain this verse any other way!!
Melisa,
You’re right that those who are still dead in their sins, children of the devil, and not born again (Jehovah’s Witnesses) have no understanding of the things of God. However, when God raises people from the dead, He makes them a new creation, and they can begin to understand holy things.
1 Corinthians 2:10 says, “but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God.”
1 Corinthians 2:16 says, “For who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.”
We are given the mind of Christ so we can understand. Are you born again?
Thanks,
Bill
Anonymous,
Hebrews 1 contains the answer to your Revelation 3 objection.
The only reason you think Proverbs 8 is speaking of Jesus is because you desperately want it to. There is zero indication in the text that it is speaking of Jesus.
I agree that God is the same in the OT and NT and will never change. Jesus is Yahweh in Genesis 18, 32, Isaiah 6.
I can’t believe that you’re going to sit there and let Tom continually point out your inability to answer his question, and do nothing about it. It is revealing.
Thanks,
Bill
Proverbs 17:15. Well… I do not acquitting the guilty and I do not condemning the innocent. I only gave proves that the true God is Jesus’ Father (scroll your computer screen upwards).
Tom said I can’t answer his Proverbs 17:15….what is it to explain? This verse does not even tell that Jesus is God. But Tom, how can you explain 1 John 3:2?
The verse given by Tom does not even tell Jesus is God. My verses tell Jesus’ Father is God. The word is Jesus…and it’s according to the bible. God the Father is not. God the Father is the one who’s speaking, and his word is Jesus…and I’m not gonna repeat everything I’ve written because it’s exhausting.
How can Jesus be the Son, and also the Father as well? There are tremendous amount of verses that tell Jesus is the Son of God, even Hebrew 1 says that too, and no one can even explain that to me. Jesus said himself that he is the Son of God, and he never and I repeat never equalized himself to his Father. Are you denying the words of Christ’? Are you even born again?
Bill, when you said “it is revealing”, what is it that’s revealing? – Do my words reveal that Jesus is the Son of God?, because I have tried to explain it as clearly as I can.
Thanks.
By the way, Tom never did give me a question, it was me who gave you guys questions.
There are so many many places in the bible that say Jesus is the Christ. The word Christ means messenger, What is it so hard for you to understand? If the person in Proverbs 8 is not Jesus, well who is it? Please explain this to me Bill, you can, can’t you?
Jesus is not Yahweh, beucause Yahweh is Jesus’ Father’s name. The name which Abraham and many other people in the OT worshipped to. YHWH means Ehyeh Asyer Ehyeh which means….it’s always there, before, now, and always will be. The alpha and omega,
The prayer of Adon Ha ’Olam in Jewish “siddur” is We Hu Hayah, We Hu Howeh, We Hu Yihyeh Letif ‘arah. and that means He is already there, before, now, and in the future, his power lasts for eternity.
The Father is the God, and will always will be. Jesus is his Son (his words). God is not God if he has no words. God will be like statues if he does not speak at all. The Father will always be the God, and through his Son Jesus (his own word), God the Father created the universe.
Jesus is the humanic name given by God for his own words, so people could follow him. In the OT, people followed God’s prophets, but now we follow Jesus, God’s own words which transformed into a man name Jesus.
Thanks.
The Father is God, Jesus is the ONLY path to his Father! (and the bible says so). Is there anything you want to disagree with this Bill?
There is no “One God in 3 Persons” doctrine! At least people in the OT did not know about it. The doctrine was created after the death of Christ.
Ask yourself this question: Did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Jobb, Jonah, Elijah, and many others in the OT know about the trinity? They only worshipped the Father right?
God never change! He is eternal. OT and NT speak of the same God, and please keep that in mind. People nowdays have tried so hard to change the theology “One God Only” into “One God in 3 persons”.
The devil is so clever, he is the master of deception, the father of all lies.
just the same ol’ replies…
this is exhausting. it’s the same deal when them JW’s come to my door.
the scripts they learn in thier training CANNOT deal with passages such as this.
it is very revealing indeed. i think a lot of cut and pasting has been going on here, but not a lot of study.
i think it can be easily said that i have won this debate. you people are wrong
and it is a very sad thing. i will monitor from time to time to see if there are any worthy replies that deal with my question (read all my posts..the question is there)
Holy Holy Holy is the LORD!
I understand the Trinity like this: and as i said, i’m not a jw. It should not be understood as 1+1+1=3 but as 1x1x1=1.
Tom, please put down your question again and I will try to answer it…maybe I didn’t get it back then. (I’ve looked everywhere and didn’t find any) And please try to answer my questions as well.
You keep saying that I’m a JW’s but I’m not. I have said this many times too. I’m not replying the same ol’ things, it is you who did not pay attention to what I’ve written. Try to search the meaning for the word “Christ” and please, please try to look for the word “Elohiym” and “theos”, my God, I can’t even tell you how many times I’ve said this.
Psalm 146:5 says “Blessed is he, whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the Lord his God” (New International Version). Let me ask you one thing, and please answer it: who is Jacob’s God?
1 Chronicles 16:8 says “Give thanks to the Lord, call on his name, make known among the nations what he has done” Well, whose name did David want us to call, and whose name did David want it to be known among the nations?
1 Chronicles 16:9-10 say “Sing to him, sing praise to him, tell of all his wonderful acts, glory is in his name, let the hearts of those who seek the Lord rejoice”
Whose name is it, that David want us to sing to?
You said “i think a lot of cut and pasting has been going on here, but not a lot of study”. By looking at this, I took it that you must have studied a lot, so please and please try to answer all my questions. If you can, I will definitely change my faith to whatever it is you want.
You said i think it can be easily said that i have won this debate. you people are wrong and it is a very sad thing. Okay you win, for me it is not a big deal who wins because it’s not about winning. It’s about what is written in the bible, but if you feel like you have won…well it’s your own opinion and I respect that. But I do not feel like I have lost because not a single question I gave, you can answer.
Give me just one single verse that says Jesus is God.
Give me just one single verse that says we need to worship Jesus where the fact is that Jesus does not need praise from men (John 5:41).
Give me just one single verse that says Jesus is doing his own work.
Give me just one single verse that says Jesus is equal to his Father where the fact is that His Father is greater than Jesus (John 14:28).
Most of all…
Give me just one single prove that the men in the OT know about the trinity.
Jesus is the word (John 1:1), Jesus is the Son of God (Hebrew 1), and Jesus’ Father is his God (Rev 3:12). God did not transfom himself into a man, it was God’s words that transformed into a man name Jesus. It was God’s words that became the abomination in our place. Jesus being eternal because it’s a symbol that God’s words are eternal, because God respects his own words and promises and he intends to keep them.
If you deny this that means you deny the whole bible.
Thanks
The Anonymous and John, I do not think Tom will be able to give proves that the men in the OT know about the trinity. Yet, he already felt like winning.
But I think I got it eveything that you have tried so hard to say on this blog.
The Father is God, and Jesus (which a.k.a. God’s words) is the only path to his Father. So, by following God’s words we can live, according to Matthew 4:4 that says man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes out from the mouth of God.
Thanks guys.
Guys…it’s proofs not proves :) but then again, you will get the point.
Anonymous,
I don’t know if it’s the language barrier or obstinance, but again, Jesus is not the Father. No Trinitarian believes that. That doctrine would be called modalism or oneness, and I would join you in arguing against it. That fact is something I’ve stated repeatedly to you, and regardless of why you fail to understand it, it’s indicative of the lack of progress we’ve made in this conversation.
Please repent of your idolatry and self righteousness, and trust in Christ (my Lord and my God [John 20:28], the Alpha and Omega). Thank you for your time in this conversation.
Sincerely,
Bill
Does 1x1x1=1 make any sense? It does if youre a christian. And that’s all that matters.
gen 19:24
To Tom: Prov 15:14
To Bill, I trust in Christ. There isn’t a single person who can make me do the otherwise. I believe the eternal life God his Father will give, if we have faith in Jesus (God’s words).
You said I need to repent from my idolatry, but who am I idolizing? I ask you no…I beg you to give one single verse that says Jesus is equal to God (Matthew 28:18).
If you see in the greek version of the bible, the word Lord for Jesus is “kurios” while the word Lord for God the Father is “theos”. and, if you see in the hebrew version of the bible, the word Lord for Jesus is “adonay” while the word Lord for God the Father is “Elohiym”
Those are 2 different things and meanings, but the translated bible nowdays put the same meaning for both contexts.
There isnt’t a single person in this room who can give me some proof that the men in the OT know about the trinity.
Bill, you keep saying that Jesus is equal to God or Jesus is God (but not the Father), but the bible says the otherwise. there isn’t a single verse that says Jesus is equal to his Father.
Our God is still the same God people in the OT worshipped to, if you have a different God other than that, I do not blame you, but the Bible speaks of the same God whether you like it or not. Jesus is the only path towards God, Jesus himself said that. If you trust Jesus, he will take you to his Father (to His God) because Jesus is the only mediator between men and God (1 Timothy 2:5).
If you want to end this conversation, there isn’t anything I can do.
Thanks.
God is the same God whether you see him in OT or NT. The doctrine of the trinity DID NOT exist in the OT era. It was introduced after the death of Christ.
Jesus absolutely DID NOT teach a new theology! He only brought “good news”.
If Jesus asked us to worship him, John 5:41 should not even exist! Give me a single verse that says we NEED to worship Jesus, and give me just one single verse that says we NEED to pray to Jesus. Jesus taught us to pray to his Father (Matthew 6:9).
The bible never says that people should worship Jesus…but the bible does say that we need to follow Jesus, and have faith in him.
10 Commandments #1 “You shall have no other gods before me”
10 Commandments #4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of ANYTHING in heaven above or on the earth beneath, or in the waters below. You shall not bow down to them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God…”
People nowdays have been idolizing Jesus as their God, but the truth is that Jesus is the only path to God. His Father is God the Almighty! Jesus is our only saviour, because Jesus is God’s words, and following God’s words means eternal life.
Anonymous,
I have a whole list in this post where Jesus shares the same title as the Father, which in many instances makes Him equal. I’ve given you John 5:18 and John 5:23 as well, which are explicit.
If Trinitarians are correct, you are denying that Jesus is God. That means you are rejecting God, and making up some god to suit yourself. If you are incorrect, that is idolatry. You might as well carve a little wooden idol of him.
You are incorrect on your translations. Elohim and Theos mean God. Adonai and Kurios mean Lord. I can show you many instances where Yahweh is called Adonai (not the LORD, but Lord), and Jesus is called Theos, Elohim and Yahweh, but I’ve already attempted that and you don’t get it. That’s okay. God will save you if you are chosen. I’ve given you the true gospel, and that fulfills my duty to God and to you.
Please think about it, and if you want to continue to debate, I’m going to do my best to not continue. If you have any genuine questions, I’d be happy to help.
Thanks,
Bill
Yes, I got a little mixed up with the Lord and God thing. Elohiym and Theos means God and Kurios and Adonay means Lord (I was typing in a hurry back then), but this elohiym (God) also applies to both Moses, and to certain angels in heaven.
Sometimes Jesus is called Theos, that’s right…but God the Father is called “ton theos” which means “the” God. There is this additional “the” before the word God, and what does it mean? Check this out:
1. “en arkhe en ho logos” (in the beginning was the word)
2. “kai ho logos en pros ton theos” (the word was with “the” God)
3. “kai theos en ho logos (the word was God or God was the word)
The second line has the word “ton” before the word “theos” but the third line has no “ton” before the word “theos”. “Ton” means “the” in english, that means the word was with “THE” God which means the true God.
For example, “The car is mine”. That means this particular car is mine, not just any other car. The additional “the” makes the difference! The word “theos” is adjective if it has no prefix before it, but if we look at “ton theos” with the suffix “ton”, it becomes a noun.
Since the word “theos” in the third line has no “ton”, it becomes an adjective, which means the word is something godly, or the word has the same nature as God.
Jesus’ prayer is the proof to my explanation above.
John 17:3 says “Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only TRUE GOD, – and – Jesus Christ whom you have sent”
Who is the true God, and who is the one this true God has sent? If your John 17:3 in your bible does not have the exact same meaning as this, that means you are using a very bad translation.
Okay Bill, I will answer your John 5:18 and John 5:23
John 5:18 says “For this reason, the Jews tried to all the harder to kill him; not only he was breaking the sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God”
First of all, this verse tells us that Jesus is calling God his Father, but as to the rest of the sentence making himself equal with God did not come out from Jesus’ mouth. “Making himself equal with God” is the intrepretation of the Jews who wanted to kill Jesus, so the writer put it in his book.
If Jesus really said that himself, the line should be like this:
“For this reason, the Jews tried to all the harder to kill him; not only he was breaking the sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, – AND – making himself equal with God”
If the sentence was like this, then we can all conclude that Jesus did (2) things that are not forgivable by the Jews:
1. Calling God as his Father … AND …
2. Making himself equal with God
John 5:23 says “that all may honor the Son just as they honor the father. He who does not honor the Son, does not honor the Father who sent him”
Now, I believe I have explained this before and you really need to scroll your computer screen upwards. Jesus is the only authorised mesenger sent by God, so it is clear that God wants us to honor his messenger the same as we honor him, because Jesus is the one God sent, Do you have the guts to dishonor God’s messenger?
If Jesus is God, then the verse should be like this:
“that all may worship the Son just as they worship the father. He who does not worship the Son, does not worship the Father who sent him”
My employees respect me, and I do really want my employees to respect my son as much as they respect me. But my son is not me.
John 17:11-12 -> “I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them BY THE POWER OF YOUR NAME – the name you have given me – so that they may be one as we are one. While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by THAT NAME you gave me…”
Whose name is it that Jesus is trying to protect us with?
John 17:17 -> “Sanctify them by the truth, YOUR WORD is truth”
Whose word is the truth?
All Jesus prayer in John 17 states that Jesus is sent by His Father.
John 20:17 -> “Jesus said: Do not hold onto me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them: I am returning to my Father and your Father, my God and your God”
This verse in John 20:17 says that Jesus does have a God while he was still on earth. His God is our God.
Okay, let’s move on…
Rev 3:2 -> “Wake up and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your deeds complete in the sight of my God”
Rev 3:12 -> “Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will he leave it. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God, and I will also write on him my new name”
Those 2 verses above state that even when Jesus is already in heaven, he still does have a God…and his God is still our God.
Thank you very much
Oh my God, Bill you quoted John 20:28 it is not even relevant!
John 20:28 says “Thomas said to Him: ‘My Lord and My God!’ ”
In order to explain this matter, we need to look at the previous verses before this one.
But he (Thomas) said to them “Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my fingers where the nails were, and put my hands into his side, I will not believe it”
A week later, his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said “Peace be with you!” Then He said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
Thomas did not believe it was Jesus, that’s why He asked Thomas to put his fingers and see Jesus’ hands. When he did it, he (Thomas) was surprised that it really was Jesus and Tomas exclaimed to Jesus “My Lord and My God!”
It was a matter of surprise. He did not say “My Lord and My God” to Jesus, he was shocked because it was truly Jesus who came in and Thomas could not believe it until he touch Jesus in person. Did you not see the punctuation mark (!) in that verse?
It is similar when someone says something shocking and the person he’s talking to replies “my Lord and my God!”
oh no!!! not the ol “Thomas was surprised” explanation….
where else in scripture do you see ANYONE!!! use a phrase like that.
nice try…
Gen 19:24
and don’t forget…according to Proverbs 17:15: if Jesus was a created being then we all are going to hell
If the purpose of writing the contents in the bible is to tell us that Jesus is God, howcome I don’t see a single verse that says so? Of all hundreds of pages in the bible, there are ZERO verses that would indicate Jesus is the true God!
Who is Jesus’ God in Rev 3:12? There are many verses that say Jesus has a God even when he’s already in heaven. This is exhausting because you are not answering my question.
Maybe you are going to hell afterall, for you don’t have a single clue who the true God really is.
Read John 17:11-12, whose name is it that Jesus was reffering to?
Read Psalm 146:5, and who is this God, that Jacob had?
Give me ONE SINGLE VERSE that says we need to worship Jesus!
Jesus said that He needs no praise from men (John 5:41)
You said if Jesus was a created being then we all are going to hell. Well howcome? Howcome God’s words can lead you guys to hell? I’m so confused. God’s words in fact will lead us to eternal life (Matthew 4:4)
Most of all, why all the writers of the NT back then took so many troubles and hard ways of telling Jesus is the true God? They could’ve just written: Jesus is God, let’s worship him. But no, there isn’t a single verse that says so, or at least shares the similar meaning (getting closer) to it.
1 Timothy 1:2 “Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord”
2 Timothy 1:2 says the same thing.
1 Titus 1:4 “Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior”
Philemon 1:3 “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ”
1 Peter 1:2 “…who have been chosen according to the forknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ…”
1 Peter 1:2 “Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord”
1 John 1:3 “We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son, Jesus Christ”
2 John 1:3 “Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father, and from Jesus Christ, the Father’s Son, will be with us in truth and love”
AND MANY MANY OTHERS THAT SAY GOD IS THE FATHER, AND JESUS IS HIS SON. – There isn’t one single verse that says Jesus is God and not a single writer of those books ever said that Jesus is God –
John 20:30 “Jesus did many miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD, and that by believing you may have a life in his name”
Of all Jesus life on earth, did he want the people to know that He is God, or the Son of God?
John 17:3 “This is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent”
Obviously, you don’t understand who the true God is and who the one God has sent.
i know one person who understood who the true God was!
Thomas!!!!
“and he said TO HIM!!!! my Lord and my God!”
you cannot possible beleive that Thomas, being a good Jew, would use the name of God so flippantly like people today? silly silly silly
he was identifying Christ as God
gen 19:24
If Thomas identified Jesus as God, that means Thomas is not in the 12 disciples because all other disciples never said Jesus as God. Paul never said Jesus as God!
The only possible explanation is that Thomas was exclaiming his state of surprise by saying that.
Read every beginning of all Paul’s letters. Did you find any line that says Jesus is God?
Prov 15:14
so thomas commited blasphemy and Jesus didn’t correct him?
now it is getting even sillier!
so thomas commited blasphemy and Jesus didn’t correct him?
now it is getting even sillier!
Genesis 19:24!
The children of Gods can be called God as well…why isnt it blasphemy? Moses was once considered God to Pharaoh….isn’t that blasphemy?
John 10:34 say “Jesus answered, “It is written in your own Law that God said, ‘You are gods.’ -to whom the words of God came” Well, isn’t that blasphemy as well?
You are not making any sense. If you said Thomas committed blasphemy, it means the whole bible commits blasphemy, because the bible says that the children of God can be called Gods!
Prov 15:14
interesting thought just occured to me….
Thomas & I we are the true JW’S!!! i don’t know what the rest of ya’ll are,
but my buddy Thomas and the rest of us know who Jesus is! and we are the true witness’ of Jehovah. what Jesus (who is God…did i mention that?) did for me is amazing
for He saved a wretch like me!!! aint nuthin amazing about a cult version of grace!
why they don’t even have a testimony….do they?
so sad. so silly
Genesis 19:24!!!!
Thomas did not commit a blasphemy because he was surprised and he exclaimed: “My Lord and My God!” It was YOU who think that Thommas committed a blasphemy.
you cannot possible beleive that Thomas, being a good Jew, would use the name of God so flippantly like people today?
Ask ANY GOOD jewish guy who his true God is, and I am sure it is NOT Jesus!
Prov 15:14
This is getting irritating…
I AM NOT A JWs MEMBER! ARE YOU EVEN READING MY POSTS? or maybe you’re just as ignorant as the Pharisees!
Look, if you don’t like to see the truth about the bible, that’s A-O-KAY. But that does NOT change the fact that Jesus’ Father is greater than him, and Jesus WAS GIVEN the authority IN HEAVEN, and ON EARTH – BY HIS FATHER.
By seeing this verse everyone will know that Jesus is not God!, because if He is, He obviously does not need someone to give him the “authority” in heaven.
If you can explain this verse ONLY, and I mean this verse only, not the whole set of my previous questions, I will definitely bow down to you.
Prov 15:14 ! Silly…
there is no good Jew who would use God as an expression of surprise…
to say “OMG” is blasphemy
you are totally wrong…..again repent and beleive….. JW’s are a cult
Genesis 19:24!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
SEE …..YOU CAN’T !
And I don’t think you will be able to explain why Jesus spoke of his “God” five (5) times.
There is no law that says “Oh God” or “Oh Lord” or “my God” or “my Lord” as an expression of surprise can be considered a blasphemy. A blasphemy is when a man considers someone or something other than the true God as the real God.
Prov 15:14 !
According to microsoft encarta dictionary a blasphemy is:
1. disrespect for religion: disrespect for God or sacred things
2. something showing disrespect for religion: something done or said that shows disrespect for God or sacred things
I do not think saying “Oh God!” as to disrespect for any religion, or for God.
Having a God other than the real God is a disrespectful thing to God.
Saying ‘God’, when not praying, is using his name in vain. No easy way out of that one.
here’s is something hillarious…
i just showed that passage to 6 nonbeleivers at my work….
to read it as it is written….
not even one of them wrenched and twisted it the way the JW’s do
they all read it as it says….that thomas acknowledged Jesus as God
you guys are soooooo wrong
i have been saved….i have a testimony of God changing my heart…. i am a new creation
and Genesis 19:24 is my next tool to destroy your cultic teachings
That’s because they are non-believers! I do not think they spend much time to read the bible. You are trying to to ask non-believers to define the content of the bible?
No wonder you are so wrong!
JW’s is a cult, I agree with that 100%. They teach that Jesus began his invisible rule since 1914, and I totally disagree with them. I am NOT A JW’s!
Why don’t you….ask them to read the old greek version of the bible, your comment here will definitely differ…. and….
Why don’t you ask your 6 non-believer friends to read Revelation 3:12 where Jesus said that he has a God several times, and see what they’d say! Ask them who is this Jesus’ God.
i could ask 300000 people to read it as it is plainly written…. they would all say the same thing….as a matter of fact Robertson translates it better than you and your cultic translation. go debate him!
i know they are not high and lofty and educated like you (you see, i already knew what your reply would be!)…. no….they are plain people who read things as they are plainly written. that is why i picked them
they are not haughty or arrogant people who will wrnech and twist a passage to make it mean what they want it to.
i have been saved…. i have a testimony of God changing my heart….i am a new creation
and Genesis 19:24 is my next tool to destroy your cultic teachings
Okay if you say so, it does not and will not change what I have written here, that if Jesus is the “true God”, he would never have to be given the authority in heaven and on earth by his Father, and he would definitely never have spoken of his God many times.
The bible states that Jesus does have a God, if you don’t want to see it, there is nothing I can do. I’m just telling you what I know that’s all.
Most of all, if Jesus is the true God, John 5:41 should not even exist.
Just because this Robertson guy seems to know the bible more than I do, it does not mean everything he says is correct! Even if you ask a billion men to read it, and they come up with the same translation as you, does not mean they are right.
John 17:17 “Sanctify them by the truth, YOUR WORD is truth”
The bible is the truth! and you my friend, you just ignored many many great facts that’s written in the bible.
yea…but in this case you and your ilk are wromg….deadly wrong
if Jesus was not God….then we aer all going to hell for according to Proverbs 17:15 it is an abomination to forgive the wicked.
Genesis 19:24 is going to make you and your cultic teachings crumble
i have a testimony…i am clothed in weding garments….
Ohh….kayy…
It’s 3 in the morning and I haven’t slept all day. I think I’m gonna call it a night.
Tom, if you do not like all the facts that I gave you, that’s OKAY. I never try, did try, or going to try to force you or any of you to have the same belief as mine.
I am just trying to present all the great facts that is truly written in the bible, the rest is totally up to you.
PS; According to Proverbs 17:15, we are not going to hell, because the word HELL is not even in that verse…. and…. according to a tremendous amount of verses, Jesus is the Son of God, not God (there is this additional word “Son” before the word God).
Thanks, and I’m going to bed rightaway
i’m praying for you while your sleeping
Thanks a lot.
But make sure you pray to the Father as Jesus commanded us in Matthew 6:9.
If Jesus is the true God, that means there are (2) Gods because Jesus’ Father is known as the true God and they’e (2) different people and that means Polytheism.
If Jesus and his Father are the same person, that means modalism according to Bill.
If Jesus is the true God, His Father is the true God – one God in 3 persons – that means a whole set of new teaching! The men in the OT did not know about the trinity.
If Jesus is the true God, that means we can also be like the true God in John 17:11
If Jesus is the true God, that means we can also be like the true God in 1 John 3:2
If Jesus is the true God, He doesn’t need someone to give him the authority in heaven.
If Jesus is the true God, Matthew 5:41 should not even there.
If Jesus is the true God, He can’t be the mediator between men and God in 1 Tim 2:5.
If Jesus is the true God, He’d not be called Christ, because Christ means messenger.
most of all…
If Jesus is true God, He will definitely never speak of His God in Rev 3:12 !
This is something that you or Bill can not explain.
Jesus absolutely did not bring a whole new set of belief system! His Father is our Father, and His God is still our God (John 20:17). Jesus did not bring confusion when he was on earth, and he will certainly not bring confusion when he’s in heaven.
Let me explain you one thing:
God is always the Lord, but (a) Lord does not always automatically have to be God. Lord means king, or master.
I have seen enough amount of movies where the peasants call their King as Lord! but is their King their God?
1 Peter 3:6 says “…as Sarah obeyed Abraham, calling him lord”
Is Sarah’s God Abraham?
Jesus is the Lord, correct…Jesus is the Lord of all of us, to every nation that stands on this earth and that is why He is called Lord of Lords. Jesus is the savior to every man that stands on this ground, because Jesus is the ONLY path to God the Father. But the God is still his Father, and the Father will always be Jesus’ and our God forever!
For the verse that says we shall be like Jesus for we shall see him as he is, it means we can be Kings like Jesus is the King. We will reign with Christ for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6). Jesus is not the true God, and we will definitely not be the true God. That’s is so wrong.
1 John 3:2 was not written so that people would believe that Jesus is God, it was written so that we would believe that Jesus is the Son of God (and there are a lot of verses that say the same thing!), the Christ (the only messenger God sent), the Lord of all Lords, the great King, and we will reign together with him for a thousand years if we do not worship the beast or his image and also if we refuse to receive this beast’s marks on our foreheads (Revelation 20:4-6).
This will be the end of all my explanations because I do not have anything else to share. If Tom and Bill do not like everything what I have explained on this blog, I truly do not blame them, and I never tried to force them to accept this.
Thank you all.
The Anonymous, we will reign with Jesus as high priests (Rev 20:4-6), not kings. But yes, anyone who does not worship or even take a single mark from it, will reign with Jesus.
May be you spelled it wrong.
anonymous thinks that JW is a cult. you guys should fight!
according to proverbs 17:15 it is an abomination to justify the wicked. only God Himself could bear that wrath. that would be Jesus. fully God…God in the flesh…came through that veil. you must understand this veil to understand how/why God came in the form of man. Who is this King of glory?
Genesis 19:24 “Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh out of heaven. Genesis 19:24. In this text Abraham is visited by three individuals, one being Yahweh and the other two angels. Here we have the Son of God on the earth (Jesus) and God in heaven (father) sending down fire from heaven. This incident when Abraham met with Yahweh is what Jesus referred to when he said, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” (John 8:56) The unanimous opinion of the church Fathers was that Jesus visited Abraham in Genesis 18 and 19.
you guys are toast and cannot even deal with the 1st point i made!
yea!!!! just like Thomas i decare Jesus as “my Lord and my God!!!!”
Why should he fight anyone? 1 John 4:7 says that we need to love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
Do you love, Tom? Do you love your enemies?
Jesus said in John 17:26 “I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”
By looking at this verse I guess Jesus hard work is useless, because none of the poeple nowdays know who Jesus’ Father is. Jesus had tried so hard to make his Father well-known to all people but people do not want to know his Father, and they just don’t care.
ok… i still think you guys should “battle” (fight, debate, whatever)your doctrines…
i think it would be fun to watch. after all, none of you can refute any of my positions so you might as well debate each other
your in a cult.
i have been saved, i am a new creation in Christ, i have a testimony. i was dead in my sin and now am alive, i am clothed in wedding garments. this is all because God has justified me. but how? according to proverbs 17:15 God would become an abomination for justifying me, a wicked man…. how? God in flesh…. Christ. fully God fully man
bore the wrath of the Father for me.
throw yourself upon His mercy. if you have no godly sorrow that leads to repentance,
if you have no concept of how extremely vile you really are…. then you are hopelessly lost
if i could put all your thoughts and actions on a screen for all to see you would be horrified. you have thought things so vile and disgusting that you cannot even share them with your closest friend. oh….you can deny it, but you know it’s true
repent and beleive.
i am here to pray for you….. that’s love
You don’t know me, how in the world you know that I can’t even share whatever it is with my closest friends? LOL.
Well, thank you for this conversation Tom, but I surely am know what I’m doing.
John 16:25 “Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell plainly about My Father”.
Who is this Father that Jesus is going to tell plainly? And who is Jesus’ Father?
The Father is the true God and Jesus is the one He sent forth (John 17:3). Within this verse, there is eternal life. – Are you even going to deny this?
wrong yet again…. i Do know you!
actually….if you read my post it was in responce to John! maybe soemone has a guilty conscience?
though that post does apply you…me…every person on the planet.
not only are you an evil sinner, but you don’t answer questions very well.
repent and beleive!
Yea sorry, The Anonymous and I are using the same computer in this 24/7 internet cafe. When I posted that last comment, the name in the “Leave a Reply” box was automatically set up to hers (The Anonymous’) and I forgot to change it.
You see, we may not answered your questions very well, but you did not answer our questions at all.
Believe me, you DON’T know me at all, or her.
not true. no answers…. not even one. and i Do know you.
the retorts to Jw arguments are all over the internet. i am not obligated to cut and paste like ya’ll do
but NOWHERE!!! i repeat… NOWHERE!!!are there any (including here) arguments against what i have listed as problems with your abominable teachings. gee whiz…i’ve looked and looked and looked and your “answers” must have disappeared. you don’t even want to deal with that Genesis passage!
nice try though….
ask God to renew your wicked heart. i am here for you if you need me ( i really mean that) i will pray for you and pray with you. it’s sad, because you haven’t even gone through that godly sorrow stage. my heart grieves for you.
He did it for me! I am born again. he replaced my heart of stone with a heart of flesh…
He clothed me in wedding garments and when i die i will not be naked and cold before Him like you. it’s not too late whoever you are
Everything you have said is true, but that does not mean Jesus is the true God, His Father is. Jesus said it himself.
Psalm 146:5 “Blessed is he, whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the Lord his God” (New International Version). Jacob’s God’s name is YHWH, and that is the same God of Jesus’.
In the old Greek translation of the New Testament, Jesus mentioned the word YHWH many times, but book-store bibles (especially King James Version) have erased that name. Go and try to look the NT in its original Greek Translation, and your comment here will surely differ.
Can you find ANY scripture that says God is composed of three co-equal persons? Not one. How could there be when Jesus said at John 14:28: “The Father is greater than I am.”
To show how some people have been fooled to believe in the trinity, the following verses have been submitted as trinity proofs: John 14:9; 1 Tim. 3:16; John 1:1-4; 20:24-29; John 8:58. Do these verses say ANYTHING about a God composed of three co-equal, co-eternal persons?
Check this out:
John 14:9: “He that has seen me has seen the Father.”
Do you see a trinity here? This verse only mentions TWO (2) persons, not (3) THREE. So where is the trinity here?
1 Tim. 3:16: “God manifested in the flesh.” Where in that sentence does it say anything about a 3-in-one God?. It doesn’t.
John1:1-14. (Too long to quote here) – but again, these verses do NOT mention (3) THREE persons. So where’s the trinity?
John 8:58: “I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” Do you see (3) THREE co-equal persons in this verse? NO! So where is the evidence of the trinity here?
John 20:28: “My Lord and my God.” Do you see (3) THREE co-eternal persons making up God here? No! So where is the trinity?
Matt. 28:19: “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit.”
Do this verse say that the Father, Christ, and the holy spirit constitute a Trinitarian Godhead, that the three are equal in substance, power, and eternity? No, it doesn’t, it’s merely listing three people, similar to: Tom, Dick, and Harry.
QUESTION:
It is said in the First Epistle of John 5:7-8: “For there are three that bear record in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one.
ANSWER:
That is in The King James Version, authorized in 1611, and formed the strongest evidence for the doctrine of the Trinity. But now this part, “the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one,” has been expunged in The Revised Standard Version of 1952 and 1971 and in many other Bibles, as it was a gloss that had encroached on the Greek text.
A Protestant publication states: “The word Trinity is not found in the Bible . . . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century.” (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) And a Catholic authority says that the Trinity “is not . . . directly and immediately [the] word of God.”
—New Catholic Encyclopedia.
The Encyclopedia of Religion admits: “Theologians today are in agreement that the Hebrew Bible does not contain a doctrine of the Trinity.” And the New Catholic Encyclopedia also says: “The doctrine of the Holy Trinity is not taught in the O[ld] T[estament].”
The Triune God, Jesuit Edmund Fortman admits: “The Old Testament . . . tells us nothing explicitly or by necessary implication of a Triune God who is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. . . . There is no evidence that any sacred writer even suspected the existence of a [Trinity] within the Godhead. . . . Even to see in [the “Old Testament”] suggestions or foreshadowings or ‘veiled signs’ of the trinity of persons, is to go beyond the words and intent of the sacred writers.”
Bernhard Lohse says in A Short History of Christian Doctrine: “As far as the New Testament is concerned, one does not find in it an actual doctrine of the Trinity.” The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology similarly states: “The N[ew] T[estament] does not contain the developed doctrine of the Trinity. ‘The Bible lacks the express declaration that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of equal essence’ [said Protestant theologian Karl Barth].”
Yale University professor E. Washburn Hopkins affirmed: “To Jesus and Paul the doctrine of the trinity was apparently unknown; . . . they say nothing about it.”
—Origin and Evolution of Religion.
Historian Arthur Weigall notes: “Jesus Christ never mentioned such a phenomenon, and nowhere in the New Testament does the word ‘Trinity’ appear. The idea was only adopted by the Church three hundred years after the death of our Lord.”
—The Paganism in Our Christianity.
Primitive Christianity did not have an explicit doctrine of the Trinity such as was subsequently elaborated in the creeds.”
—The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology.
“The early Christians, however, did not at first think of applying the [Trinity] idea to their own faith. They paid their devotions to God the Father and to Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and they recognised the Holy Spirit; but there was no thought of these three being an actual Trinity, co-equal and united in One.”
—The Paganism in Our Christianity.
Search as you may, you will not find one scripture that says that (1) Father, (2) Son, and (3) holy spirit are equal in all ways, such as in eternity, power, position, and wisdom. Not even a single scripture says that the Son is equal to the Father in those ways, and if there were such a scripture, it would establish not a Trinity but merely as “duality.” Nowhere does the Bible equate the holy spirit with the Father.
Thanks.
When I said everything you said is true, is that the retorts to Jw arguments are all over the internet. Not the whole of your theory. I should’ve never written the word “everything” in there LOL.
To Thomas’ Lord and God « Fisher of Men,
My belief in Jesus’ Father as the true God (John 17:3), although it shares the same belief to the JW’s can not automatically be concluded that I’m a JW’s member. There are millions of things from their teaching which I highly disagree with. I believe that the Father is the true God as Jesus himself said. The reason why I strongly oppose the trinity doctrine is because it absolutely is not biblical.
Jesus absolutely did not bring a whole new set of belief system! In the era when Jesus still lived on earth, all his disciples and many others did not recognize the trinity. If one says that there are 3 co-equal, co-eternal persons into one God, there must be at least one solid proof to back it up.
Yes, I know there are verses that can be used to describe that Jesus is equal to his Father although it is not very clear, but as to the Holy Spirit, there is none! So, the doctrine is more in a way, a little bit closer to “Duality” instead of “Trinity”, and this is the reason why I oppose such belief. You see, there isn’t a single verse that says the Holy Spirit is equal to God the Father, directly or indirectly.
I truly believe that Jesus is the Son of God as Jesus himself claimed. To create a different conclusion out of that context is of course unbiblical. The bible whether you read the OT or the NT, always speak of the same God…and God in the OT is called YHWH. Jesus even mentioned “YHWH” for several times in the NT (in the old greek translation of the holy bible), and this is something that I strongly encourage people to look for.
I encourage people to search for the word YHWH in the original Greek translation, which most of our bookstore bibles are translated from, and the word YHWH is in both the OT and NT. I do not know the reason why the translators erased it, but the fact is that the word YHWH is in there.
There is not a single verse that describes God is composed of three co-equal persons, implicitly or explicitly. There are zero verses that can used to describe the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are of one essence (in a single line).
If Thomas truly said that Jesus is both the Lord and the true God (a pure statement instead of a surprise), why 11 other disciples never said the same?
in John 17, there are several verses where Jesus mentions his Father’s name, and in John 17:26, it says that He (Jesus) has already made his Father known to them (all people who believe in Jesus), and that He will continue to make it that way. This is the verse I keep thinking over and over. Who is Jesus trying to make all-known to people?
Most of all… why did Jesus even say that He needs no praise from men? I think this verse is so important in making the right conclusion about who the true God is.
Thanks
why is there no record of the other disciples using the Holy name of God as an expression of surpise?
you are wrong again
John,
Where is “YHWH” in the New Testament?
Thanks,
Bill
Bill, in the Greek text.
Tom, there is no single person who used the holy name of God as an expression of surprise. Thomas did not mention YHWH, he only said “My Lord and My God!”, and I don’t think it can be considered a blasphemy. Jesus stated that His Father is the only true God (John 17:3), why all people nowdays think the otherwise?
If everyone says that the trinity doctrine is taught in the bible, why there isn’t a single verse that can be used to prove it? especially when it comes to the holy Spirit.
The bible only lists 3 persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, but there are zero verses that say those 3 are equal and united in one.
None of these verses: John 14:9; 1 Tim. 3:16; John 1:1-4; 20:24-29; John 8:58, and any other verses in the bible that CLEARLY describe that God is of 3 persons united in one. They rather describe that God is made of 2 persons only (the Father and Jesus). Just give me at least one verse that says the Holy Spirit is equal to the Father.
why is there no record of the other disciples using the Holy name of God as an expression of surpise? Tom, you are asking the impossible! There is no record that the bible ever speak about America, Australia, Indonesia, and any other countries you’ve never heard of, but they all exist! and how do you explain that? Stop being foolish!
If you ask that question, there is none on earth who can actually answer it.
I have tried SO HARD to present the facts to you, if you still want to disregard them, it is totally up to you guys.
Thanks.
Tom, you have to try to think of my comments, all of them, with a clear mind. Do not let your emotion gets in the way. Please have a kind heart at least to think. I’ve never ever tried to force you, Bill, or anyone else here to have the same faith as mine.
At least try to consider them (all my comments) a bit, and if you still think that they’re against the bible, you can comeback to your old faith. This matter of faith is all God’s property. Only He can change a person according to His will when the right time comes.
Thank you, and you will never see any of my further comments on this blog anymore [hopefully :) ] because I have explained everything I know.
Bye guys.
like thomas, i say UNTO HIM!!!! “my Lord and my God!”
John,
You said, “Jesus even mentioned “YHWH” for several times in the NT (in the old greek translation of the holy bible), and this is something that I strongly encourage people to look for.”
I asked where YHWH might be in the New Testament, meaning I’d like to find out what book, chapter and verse.
Thanks,
Bill
Bill,
If I had to venture a guess, He probably used it in John 8:58, when He said “Before Abraham was I AM.” After which the Jews took up stones to stone Him. For what? For calling Himself God.
Or in John 18:4, when the soldiers came to arrest Him and they asked for Jesus of Nazareth and He said, “I AM.” Kinda like in Exodus when God told Moses, “Tell them I AM has sent you.”
The Anonymous wanted one verse that said Jesus was God. How about one I’m sure he has heard before. John 10:30—“I and My Father are One.” What was the response of the Jews? “Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.” Why did they react this way? Because, I dare say, Jesus was invoking the Shema—“YHVH is One.” Then what did the Jews say a few verses later? “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” Of course, Jesus corrected their misguided anger by denying that He was God. Didn’t He? No? Hmm, I wonder why.
As far as commenter John’s use of source quotes, they obviously were cut and pasted from “Should you Believe in the Trinity?” They read word-for-word the same. It’s good to look up what the rest of the verses say, and who wrote it.
First off, I wouldn’t quote Karl Barth. He tends to be rather unorthodox. It would be like quoting Brian McLaren or Rob Bell.
The FULL quote from the Illustrated Bible Dictionary reads, “TRINITY. The word Trinity is not found in the Bible, and though used by Tertullian in the last decade of the 2nd century, it did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the fourth century.” Correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the last decade of the 2nd century come before 325 and the Council of Nicea?
From the same Encyclopedia of Religion quote given above—The Trinity’s “origins may legitimately be sought in the Bible…What the scriptures narrate as the activity of God…is the wellspring of later Trinitarian doctrine.”
More from the quote from Jesuit Fortman—”However, these [Old Testament] writers definitely do give us the words that the New Testament uses to express the trinity of persons”
Next time you’re going to quote, make sure you read the whole thing, and don’t just rely on the Watchtower to do their homework. Because a lot of times, they don’t.
And while the WORD “Trinity” is not in the Bible, did you know that phrases like “The Ten Commandments” and “Virgin Birth” aren’t in the Bible either? And if it was supposed to be called the “Sermon on the Mount” then why didn’t Jesus come right out and say it?
Fourpointer,
Thanks for the info. I’ve run into few people that are harder to reason with than John and Anonymous. Clearly, they will only be able to understand if God raises them from the spiritually dead. I pray that will happen.
Bill
Fourprinter,
Give me just (1) one verse that says God is of 3 co-equal persons, by definition, or by any means necessary, directly, or indirectly. There are many verses that describe Jesus is “equal” to his Father although it’s not clear (and Jesus never claimed to be), but give me just one verse that says the Holy Spirit is equal to the Father. And how can you say it truly is trinity?
Jesus never claimed He is equal to his Father (John 14:28). It is YOU and everybody else think He is! Jesus ALWAYS claimed to be the Son of God.
Read John 17:3, does it says that Jesus is the true God?
John 10:30 “The Father and I are one” but…..where is the Holy Spirit? If God is composed of 3 persons, Jesus should’ve included the Holy Spirit as well. And please explain this to me.
Guys…the word ONE in John 10:30 can not be considered as one unit. It means that Jesus came from his Father that’s all. Jesus never claimed to be equal to his Father himself, this would be a blasphemy. John 14:28 says his Father is greather than him.
Fourprinter, you said Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.” Why did they react this way? Because, I dare say, Jesus was invoking the Shema—“YHVH is One.” Then what did the Jews say a few verses later? “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
Jesus did not say they were wrong, it’s true, but Jesus did not say they were right either. Look there, it is the Jew’s own interpretation. Jesus did not say He is equal to his Father, He said that was the Son of God (verse 36). Maybe you ask Why Jesus didn’t try to correct them, if they’re wrong? It’s because He knew how their heart was! And, because He tried to fulfill the prophecy. Jesus knew that he’d die on a cross and why didn’t he try run away?
Jesus always claimed to be the Son of God, and never the bible says that the Holy Spirit is equal with the Father.
If Jesus truly is the true God, then nobody would be able to explain 1 John 3:2 that says “Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is”
Do you guys think that we can be like the true God?
Oh my…sorry I meant fourpointer not fourprinter. Sorry for the mistake.
By the way I am not a JWs. *sigh* nobody even listens to me. I have said this many times.
if Jesus was not God then His death was for nothing. only God Himself could bear the wrath for our sins.
proverbs 17:15
Give me just one verse that says God is of 3 co-equal persons
John, first off, I have read in your former replies that you are not JW, and did not mean to imply you were. I guess it did sound like that, and that was not my intention. Those quotes, and the way the intros are worded, are very similar to the “Should you Believe?” tract from the WTBTS.
That said, do you not think that Christ, always being obedient to the Father, would have stopped them when they charged Him with claiming to be God, if indeed He was not God? If He was not God, and He made Himself God by applying the Shema to Himself, then the charge by the Jews of blasphemy would have been correct if He were not God.
Now, it’s not as though the doctrine of the Trinity is summed up in one single verse with a big red bow on top. But Jesus never did answer many questions with a direct answer. Think about what happens in a trial. There may not be a confession from the defendant or a video of him committing the crime. But with the evidence at hand, the prosecutor pieces together the truth. And what we find are the pieces of the doctrine of the Trinity throughout Scripture.
Acts 5:3-4–But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?…You have not lied to men but to God.”
Acts 20:28–Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
The Father was obviously not on the Cross, so whose blood was used to purchase us? Christ’s blood. God’s own blood.
Romans 8:9–But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
Are there two separate “spirits”–a “Spirit of God” and a separate “Spirit of Christ?” No. The Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ which is the Holy Spirit.
Isaiah 44:6–Thus says YHVH, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, YHVH of hosts: “I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.”
Revelation 1:17-18–“…Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen…”
Here we have Jesus saying that He is “the First and the Last,” a title that YHVH claims for Himself. nd since there can only be one “First” and one “Last” here we have Jesus claiming for Himself a title reserved for YHVH. Will YHVH give one of His titles to another? No. Isaiah 42:8–“I am the LORD, that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another…”
I have not read all of your comments, so you may have mentioned this before, but just so I understand what you believe, let me ask you this: When did Jesus Himself come into existence? I don’t mean His earthly body, but He Himself? Has He always existed? Or was there a time when He did not exist?
As far as the typo–no biggie. It sounds like it was an honest mistake.
Correction time: The phrase “Ten Commandments” is, in fact, in the Bible.
Exodus 34:28–And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.
Acts 9:20 “At once he began to preach in synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God”
1 John 4:15 “If anyone acknowledges that Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God”
1 John 5:5 “Who is it that overcomes the world? Only he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God”
Do people believe that Jesus is the Son of God? No!, they now believe that Jesus is the true God, and it is NOT in the bible.
As I have said it many many times, that we WILL BE like Jesus when we see Him as He is (1 John 3:2). If you say that Jesus is the true God, then we will CERTAINLY BE like the true God as well.
If Mr. Fourpointer acknowledges that the trinity does exist in the bible, please tell me the verse where it says that the Holy Spirit is equal to Jesus’ Father.
You asked When did Jesus Himself come into existence? I don’t mean His earthly body, but He Himself? Has He always existed? Or was there a time when He did not exist?
The answer is this:
And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God: I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So because thou art lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spew thee out of my mouth… (Rev 3:14-16)
Jesus is AMEN, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God. If you have any other person that is more suitable to this position, please let me know.
Jesus is the word (John 1:1) that comes out from the mouth of God, but Jesus himself is not the Father. Whenever the Father speaks, His “voice / words” comes out, and that word is transofrmed into a man name Jesus (NT). In the OT era, God spoke through prophets, but now He only speaks through His only begotten son, Jesus.
There is eternal life through Jesus means there is eternal life through God’s word. Matthew 4:4 says “Then Jesus answered: It is written that Man does not live on bread alone, but on every WORD that comes from the mouth of God”
Jesus is God’s words, the word that came into a man (John 1:1), but God himself is still God the Father. Our God is God that speaks. God that’s alive. He is not just a statue. Our God is still the same, whether it’s in OT or NT.
Bill said I have a whole list in this post where Jesus shares the same title as the Father, which in many instances makes Him equal.
But I have millions of verses that say Jesus is the Christ, the messenger, the Son of God, and that his Father is the only true God, and Jesus needs no praise bla…bla…bla… making him NOT equal to his Father (and Jesus said himself that his Father is greater than him).
Jesus does have a God!
So what are we going to do now?
John,
You or Anonymous have acknowledged that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega (the Alpha and Omega is identified as God Almighty in Revelation 1:8). You’ve also conceded that Jesus was worshipped (and if Jesus isn’t God, this is a violation of the First Commandment, regardless of whether He commanded anyone to worship Him).
What are we going to do now? You’re either going to repent of your rebellious attitude toward Jesus, and put your faith in Him alone, or you’re going to continue in your idolatry. I truly desire for you to be born again, and have your sins removed as far as the East is from the West. Please think about it.
Bill
John,
Just so I understand you correctly, are you saying that Jesus was the first thing God created? That Jesus came into existence and lived with the Father until His incarnation? I’m not trying to trick or trap you, I just want to know what you think so we can dialog better.
How do you explain the parallel between Isaiah 44:6 and Revelation 1:17-18, since Jesus is the First and Last, and YHVH is the First and Last, and there can only be one First and one Last? Is Jesus committing blasphemy by claiming the title that belongs to YHVH?
You said that Jesus is equal to His Father because the disciples believed so?
Here is the prove that the 12 DID NOT consider Jesus was equal to His Father.
Acts 4:27-30 says:
…Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you annointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen. Now, Lord, consider their threats and enable your servants to speak your word with great boldness. Stretch out your hand to heal and perform miraculous signs and wonders through the name of YOUR HOLLY SERVANT Jesus.
Ephesians 1:16-17 says:
I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you MAY KNOW HIM BETTER.
2 Corinthians 11:31 says:
The God and Father OF the Lord Jesus, who is to be praised forever, knows that I am not lying.
AND MANY MANY OTHER VERSES. Do you think the people who wrote this committed a blasphemy?
The matter with Jesus is there before the beginning of time and so on, and all your questions towards my other opinions back then have been explained flawlessly, please scroll back.
Thank you.
2 Corinthians 11:31 is so exquisitely clear.
and so is John 17.
“Blessed is he, whose help is the God of Jacob, whose hope is in the Lord his God” – Psalm 146:5
AMEN…
In order not to confuse you and the others, I have to say that the Anonymous and I are the same. We live under one roof. The Anonymous is my girlfriend, so her comments are mine (vice versa).
If Mr. Fourpointer would like to know and to understand my whole theory about this issue we’ve been debating, please scroll back to the very first comment my girlfriend had posted. Thank you.
We have been out of town, so yea it’s been a while since we last commented on this beautiful blog.
…Remember guys, Jesus is the Son of God, not God. He said this himself. Even when Jesus is already in heaven, he still does have a God (Rev 3:2)
Anonymous/John,
From what you’re describing, you’re living with your girlfriend. Is this some sort of place where there are many people living together? Are you and she chaperoned at all times?
If you are having premarital sex with your girlfriend, that is a wicked act, and shows that you do not obey Jesus’ commands, and do not love Him (John 14:21). In your theology, what happens to those who do not love Jesus?
Avoid even the appearance of evil (1 Thess 5:22).
Thanks for your response before we continue on with this discussion.
Bill
Anonymous/John,
I would hope you will answer my questions from the last comment. If you are guilty of fornication, and not repentant of it, as far as I’m concerned, you show yourself to be a child of the devil (1 John 3:10), and for anyone to have the same doctrine as a child of the devil, would actually seem to be a bad thing. Maybe your doctrines come from the devil (2 Cor. 4:4).
Thanks,
Bill
This is not an issue we’ve been debating. Yes we live under the same roof. We live in the same apartment building, and I do not think it’s a sin :)
If my teaching is from the devil, please give me some proof. All I said that Jesus does have a God, and that is His Father. How can you tell that my teaching comes from the devil? Besides, it is NOT my teaching, it’s Jesus’.
The 12 did not consider Jesus as their God, they claimed Jesus as their Lord.
IF you can’t comment on Acts 4:27-30, Ephesians 1:16-17, and 2 Corinthians 11:31, (and MANY MANY OTHERS, please scroll way upward) why are you bringing my personal life into this? You don’t even know me, yet you have justified yourself by saying my doctrines come from the devil.
I have NOT (!!!) broken any law (state’s, or God’s) by living in the same apartment building with my girlfriend, or maybe you think I have?
I have given you so MANY facts but you have chosen not to listen, I can’t do anything more. Please just for once, try to scroll back to the very first comment The Anonymous and I have put up until here then you will understand.
Thanks
Bill, you don’t have a kind heart. All you’ve been doing is to judge me and say bad things about me (especially Mr. Tom Harvey who wishes that I’d get punished in hell) because I say differently to the rest of the guys here.
I dont bring a new theology, and neither did Jesus! In the 12 disciples era, the God was always Jesus’ Father, even until Jesus had gone to heaven, they still thought that Jesus’ Father is the only God. They did not know about the trinity.
Our God is eternal, the OT and NT speak of the same God, and that God is my God. Jesus will be the ruler of everything, but the God is still His Father. Because everything Jesus did and will do, always come from His Father. Jesus is the ONLY path to His Father. So, please tell me where was I wrong?
John,
I’m concerned about your eternity. If I wasn’t, I’d just delete your comments. I certainly wouldn’t spend all the time I have writing to you. Tom doesn’t want you to go to hell. He wants you to understand why Jesus had to be God to properly atone for sin.
While I will believe that you are not committing fornication with your girlfriend, it’s laughable to the world that two people living together aren’t sleeping together. It’s just assumed. If a little boy had his hand in the cookie jar, and his parents caught him stealing a cookie, would anyone really believe him when he insisted that he wasn’t stealing a cookie?
If you were Christians, I would insist that the two of you move out. There is no reason good enough for you to be living together. It is the appearance of evil, and a slander on the name of God.
Even if you’re a virgin, if you’ve looked at a woman with lust, you’ve committed adultery with her in your heart (Matt 5:28-29). That makes you an adulterer. You’ve broken God’s holy law, and you deserve to be punished. Only if you trust in the right Jesus will your sins be atoned for, allowing you to go to heaven.
I realize you’re not a JW, but many of them don’t even believe they’re born again, which would make them children of the devil. Are you born again, or are you a child of the devil?
That being said, I will answer your questions.
Philippians 2:6-7 says, “Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.”
Jesus was God, but made Himself nothing. I’m sure you would agree that this would make the Father greater than Him (John 14:28). If God came to earth and lived as a human, do you think He would live as an atheist? Don’t you think He would still pray and worship God. These were part of the laws He had to obey to be sinless. The doctrine of the Trinity teaches that Jesus is the 2nd person of the Trinity, and that He willingly submits Himself to the Father. All of your verses teach the Trinity. Furthermore, the Father calls Jesus God in Hebrews 1. In your thinking, does that make the Father inferior to Jesus?
That is the answer to all of your questions. You can reject it if you like.
You have so many unanswered questions. If you’ll notice, many JWs have come onto this post, and trotted out their favorite verses, but none have responded to the actual post. That is the very same tactic you’ve chosen. Fourpointer and I have asked you repeatedly about the Alpha and Omega and the First and the Last issue, and you’ve ignored it.
Thanks,
Bill
If god came to earth surely he wouldn’t pray to himself
If God came to earth, and had communion among the persons of the Trinity from eternity past, do you think He would live as an atheist when He got to earth? Do you really think the Son would no longer care to have fellowship with the Father? That doesn’t make any sense to me.
“The Jehovah’s Witnesses have completely changed the Bible with their New World Translation. They are desperate to show that Jesus is not God. There is a long list of Scriptures that prove that Jesus is one with God, but the Jehovah’s Witnesses have done their best to edit those out of their bible. The following list works even with their bible.”
“Completley changed”?? Are you sure? Changed it from what?
Desperate to show??? Well, the fact that salvation is not possible if Jesus were God is desperation then yes, JWs are desperate.
But those scriptures do not prove anything because they were given in different eras.
Rev 22:13 is not Jesus speaking because Jesus does not speak until v16
John said: “Especially Mr. Tom Harvey who wishes that I’d get punished in hell”
this is a horrible thing to say about me… as if you know what my wishes are
i cannot believe someone would resort to something so low… not to mention that it’s a textbook strawman argument.
you should have written: “Especially Mr. Tom Harvey who wishes that I’d simply answer the questions posed to me instead cutting and pasting the same ol arguments”
or how about : “Especially Mr. Tom Harvey who wishes that i’d take him up on his offer to pray with him so i can be freed from my bondage”
or : “Especially Mr. Tom Harvey who loves me enough to lovingly debate me”
you post makes me absoltly sick and has no basis in any of my previous posts. it’s like i said b4 … when you are alone at night your sin and your enmity with God bug you… so you take it out on me! repent and beleive … repent…. and beleive and even though you’ve done this horrble, despicable, extremley vile thing…. i am still here for you if you need me. that, my friend, is love
Shawn,
Thanks for your comment, and taking the time to respond.
When I say completely changed, I should actually say “mistranslated.” The NWT is a paraphrase, which means that it isn’t a direct translation, but is translated to fit into someone’s doctrine. One good example is inserting “[other]” several times into Colossians 1, when it doesn’t appear anywhere in the manuscripts. I don’t know why they bothered to put “other” in brackets in that place when they take so many liberties elsewhere without bothering to make note of it.
Why do you say that salvation isn’t possible if Jesus were God? I think it’s impossible if He weren’t God.
There are many reasons to believe that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega.
There is little doubt that Jesus is the First and the Last in Revelation 1:17-18. The First and the Last speaks in Revelation 22:13, and reveals Himself as the Alpha and Omega. The Alpha and Omega is God Almighty (Revelation 1:8). Revelation 1 and Revelation 22 don’t take place in different eras. Besides that God is eternal, and time means nothing to Him.
Revelation 1:8 (NIV) says, “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”
Rev. 1:17-18 says, “I am the First and the Last. 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever…”
I am the Alpha and the Omega = I am the First and the Last
Alpha is the first letter of the Greek alphabet.
Omega is the last letter of the Greek alphabet.
Who is = I am the Living One
Who was = I was dead
Who is to come = I am alive for ever and ever
The Bible is trying to tell you something here. Maybe you should listen to it rather than the Watchtower.
There are many times when Jesus does things or claims things for Himself that would either make Him God or a wicked blasphemer. Claiming to be the First and the Last is a clear reference to Isaiah 44:6, and pretending that it’s not is just being silly.
Are you born again or are you a child of the devil?
Thanks,
Bill
if Jesus was not God then we are all going to hell
Proverbs 17:15
Bill,
You said: Philippians 2:6-7 says, “Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness.”
You should look on the other version of the bible (any that still exist on this planet), and as far as I could remember I have suggested this long time ago, please scroll back. Besides when you read this verse, you should read it until it ends (verse 11, and tell me what it says)
Fourpointer and I have asked you repeatedly about the Alpha and Omega and the First and the Last issue, and you’ve ignored it.
I never ignored it. In fact, it is well written in my previous post. I have asked you and the others to scroll back to the very first comment up until here, I guess you haven’t done it.
Jesus is God’s word that manifests into a form of human (John 1:1) That is why he always there together with God, from the very very beginning. Even when God created the universe, Jesus was there to help him. That is why he is called the Alpha & Omega, First and Last, anything you name it.
To Mr. Tom Harvey, you keep saying if Jesus was not God then we are all going to hell LET ME ASK YOU ONE THING: How in the world can God’s word lead you to hell?? Please tell me, because I am dying to know.
1 Corinthians 8:6 says: yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came, and for whom we live, and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came, and through whom we live,
The Father is always the true God, from whom all things came, but we live in the name of the Lord Jesus, THROUGH whom all men live, and THROUGH whom all things came.
You need to know the difference between LORD and GOD. Jesus’ Father is the true God, and Jesus is the ONLY path to His Father! and through Jesus only, all things came and all things live.
Bill, the trinity exists because you are desperately want it to. There are ZERO VERSES that indicate that the Holy Spirit is equal to the Father, so how can you tell it really is the trinity? Give me one single verse verse that tells the Holy Spirit is equal to Jesus’ Father. You can, can’t you??
Hebrew 1:3 does not say anything about Jesus being equal to His Father. “He is the reflection of God’s glory and the exact likeness of his being, and he holds everything together by his powerful word.”
You see, we are also the exact likeness of God as well. Genesis 5:1 says “This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God.” Does this verse make Adam equal to God?
Bill, I do not have any TACTICS here, please be mindfull about that. You keep asking whether I’m a child of the devil or not, according to my consciousness, I am a child of God, but…if you think the otherwise, it is your rights to do so and I truly respect that. Whether I am a child of God or the devil it is not your decision, it is God’s.
To Mr. Tom Harvey (again) you said: when you are alone at night your sin and your enmity with God bug you… so you take it out on me!
My enmity with God?? *LOL* of all my writings on this blog, and that’s the best thing you can come up with? Look!, I did not, do not, and will not take it out on you, whatever it is. How can you say that I hate God? Silly, silly…
I live according to what Jesus said in John 17:3. Within those words, there is eternal life.
Thank you, and God bless.
One more thing,
Facts:
The 12 disciples and many other people in that era, have been long dead since, and they only KNEW that Jesus WAS NOT God. (Acts 4:27-30, Ephesians 1:16-17, 2 Corinthians 11:31, & many other verses) and they DID NOT know about the Trinity as well.
Question:
IF the fact that’s Jesus truly is the true God, and the Trinity is the correct doctrine, do you think the 12 will go to heaven?
Thanks,
The Anonymous & John.
John/Anonymous,
You agree that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega. You agree that the Alpha and Omega is God Almighty. But you say Jesus isn’t God Almighty. Logic 101 says that if a=b and b=c then c=a. I apologize for saying you haven’t responded to the Alpha and Omega, First and Last issue. I should have just said your response was preposterous.
The analogy of being born again is prevalent in the Bible.
Ezekiel 36:26 talks about having your heart of stone replaced with a heart of flesh.
John 1:12-13, Romans 8:14-17 talk about being born of God’s will as His child.
Matt 7:15-23 talks about becoming a good tree rather than a thorn bush.
2 Corinthians 4:6 talks about God causing light to shine out of darkness.
Ephesians 1 talks about passing from death to life.
2 Corinthians 5 talks about becoming a new creation.
You go from having a heart of stone, being a child of the devil, a thornbush, in darkness, and dead in your sins by being born again. If you aren’t born again, you are all of those things including a child of the devil. Why do you refuse to say you’re born again? You can insist all day long that you’re a child of God, but you are a child of the devil if you’re not born again. The Watchtower teaches that the 98% of JWs aren’t children of God. They just never bother to tell them what they really are.
Thanks,
Bill
i can’t believe that John’s heart is so wicked that he won’t even apologize for the horrible things he said about me. i think that speaks volumes about the man.
he cannot my questions
he constantly cuts and pastes
he in uninstructable (1 cor 2:14)
uses nonstop strawmen arguments
and will not admit he is wrong
these are the attributes of a man who is at enmity with God.
i love you though… and i am here for you if you want to turn from your wicked ways… iwill prayer for/with you
This is getting irritating,
Tom you always said that I can’t answer your questions. What are your questions?? Give me one so I CAN ANSWER.
I presented the verses that say Jesus is the Lord, but not God, and there is no trinity, and about the 12 who did not recognize Jesus as the true God…etc, etc and you said I am at enmity with God? All I have written here is not of my own sayings but according to the bible.
I said horrible things about you? Like what? Did you even see my posts?
Porverbs 17:15 says “He who justifies the wicked and he who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD”
I do not see a single question within this verse.
You keep saying that if Jesus is not God, then we all go to hell. Where is in the bible that say that? Jesus is the word that comes out of God’s mouth (John 1:1), and I truly believe that Jesus is in fact with lead us to eternal life, not hell. Where did you get your teaching?
You said that I use nonstop strawmen arguments, to tell you the truth I don’t even understand what it is. And if I did use it, I do not think it’s a sin.
and … THERE IS NO LAW THAT SAYS I CAN NOT CUT AND PASTE, my God, please stop acting like a child.
Tom, I believe that Jesus’ Father is the true God according to John 17:4, why do you think that I must admit that I am wrong?
Bill, you said: You agree that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega. You agree that the Alpha and Omega is God Almighty. But you say Jesus isn’t God Almighty. Logic 101 says that if a=b and b=c then c=a.
There is no LOGIC 101 thing with God, He is undescribeable. You use human’s mind to describe God? If you read the the Anonymous’ posts and mine from the very beginning, you will understand why I believe this way.
I have been baptized, I have left all the things I did and become a new creation. So I am born again. This is not the issue we’ve been debating, and we have gone too far. I believe the original topic was whether Jesus is the true God or not.
To Tom and Bill, what makes you think that you are born again? is it the good deeds you do? or the baptism?
Thanks
John,
You have accused Tom of hating you so much that he would like you to go to hell. There is no greater act of hate than wishing for someone to be tortured for eternity, and that is exactly what you have accused him of. I can see where he would be offended by that. He has taken the time to talk to you, and show concern for your eternity, and you have misconstrued that as hate.
Why are you continuing to talk to us.
God created logic for our benefit. They are an outgrowth of His character. He is a God of order and logic, and He doesn’t disobey His own laws. The Trinity doesn’t defy the laws of logic. However your doctrine does, and I think that it can therefore be discarded.
Baptism has nothing to do with being born again.
You can tell a fruit tree by its fruit. No thorn bush will bear fruit. Only fruit trees bear fruit. You don’t bear fruit to become a fruit tree. You bear fruit because you are a fruit tree. It is a work of God to turn a thorn bush into a fruit tree. Thank God that He chose to save me and take me from the wicked thorn bush I was and turn me into a fruit tree.
The most obvious fruit there is is that one day you love your sin, and the day you are born again, you hate your sin. Not because you might get caught, but because you know it offends God. That is one way I know that I’m saved. I hate my sin, and I commit it less and less through the grace of God.
Thanks,
Bill
Bill,
I have accused John? He did say that. Take a look
tom Says:
September 29, 2008 at 12:33 pm
“Genesis 19:24 is my next tool to destroy your cultic teachings”
Do you know what Gen 19:24 is?
I never said that Tom hated me, I said that Tom whishes me. (read carefully Bill) or may be I got the wrong impression about Tom, but I never said that TOM HATED ME.
Tom said that I said horrible things about him, but the truth is that it was Tom who said horrible things about me. He said that I’m wicked, he said I’m uninstructable. need I say more? He even said that I’m at enmity with God, and that is not true.
Why are you continuing to talk to us?
Noah took so many years to convince people that there’d be a great disaster, and none believed. My effort here is meaningless compared to Noah’s.
Bill, I do not have a doctrine. Everything I said is according to the bible. It is you who have a doctrine (the trinity). I asked you to give the verse that tells the Holy Spirit is equal to God the Father, but so far I have not found any.
Thanks
John,
If I accuse someone of unjustly killing somoene, I’m acusing them of being a murderer, right? If you accuse someone of the greatest act of hatred possible, you’re accusing them of hating. You don’t have to use the actual word “hate” to accuse someone of hating you.
I’m continuing to talk to you because I love the Lord and I wish to be obedient. I’m also talking to you because I care enough about you that I don’t want you to go to hell and be tortured for eternity.
Why are you continuing to talk to us? What happens to us if we don’t convert to your way of thinking?
The Bible teaches doctrine. 1 Timothy 4:16 says, “Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.”
Thanks,
Bill
I was just preparing for a Bible study and stumbled across this discussion. I noticed that one Jehovahs witness left a comment asking Christians to show Him one verse where Jehovah called Jesus God or submitted to Him. well I have found one such verse. In Hebrews1:10NWT God the Father or Jehovah if you will, says of the Son, “You at the begging oh LORD, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are the works of your hands. This is a quotation of Psalms 102:25NWT. Read the Psalm from the begginging, the writer is speaking of Jehovah, but the the author in hebrews writes jehovah saying this of Jesus. This should be pondered carefully. The term Lord is one of authority. A slave calls his master Lord. Now I would like to ask all Witnesses,
Since when did your Jehovah, according to your theology, have to call anyone Lord. If He is Almighty, that means that He is the one and only, He is above all things. Why does he call his son Lord? A father does not call his son Lord. Jesus was given all authority on heaven and earth but if you believe that Jehovah is almighty, then it is impossible for Him to call anyone else Lord. Now I ask you, is Jesus a true God or a false God? Look at 1 Cor. 8:1-6, Isaiah 43:10. There is only one God. Take a minute to ponder this one Deu. 32:39 in the NWT says, SEE now that I—I am he And there are no gods together with me. Compare this with John 1:1NWT which says that the Word was a God and was with God. Your Bible says in the OT that there is No God with Jehovah and then states that Jesus was a god and that He was with Jehovah. Either there is a translation error or Jesus is not a God but God in the flesh. Think about the significance of Jesus in the flesh. why did he come in the likeness of sinfull flesh as the Bible puts it. Jesus, the saviour came and condemned sin and death. He faced every temptation that we did according to the gospel narratives and overcame. He was sinless but He knew exactly what we go through. He gave us the example of discipleship and submission to the Father by laying down many of His divine attributes and showing complete trust in the Father. An interesting side note here, In Isaiah 9:6 calls Jesus the EVERLASTING Father. I find that interesting. I thought Jehovah was the everlasting father?
Mike,
Thanks for your comment. It all seems pretty simple to us, but to those who are blinded by Satan (2 Cor. 4:4), it seems no amount of logic is adequate. Imagine the lengths people have gone to to suppress the truth.
Thanks,
Bill
True indeed Mike! In fact, if, as John 1:18 says, no one has seen God at any time, then who did Isaiah see? Isaiah 6:5–So I said, “Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, YHVH of Hosts.”
John,
When you ask us to “scroll back to your first post,” do you mean your first post as John, or as “The Anonymous”? How do we pick out your “:anonymous” posts from your girlfriend’s? There are over 230 comments in this thread, and trying to decipher which ones are yours is a bit time-consuming.
You say that the 12 apostles “did not know Jesus as God.” Yet what did Thomas call Christ? “My Lord and My God!” (John 20:28). John said that the Word was God (John 1:1). Matthew knew that He was God when he quoted Micah 5:2, which spoke of Him “whose goings forth are from old, from everlasting” (cf. Matthew 2:6)
Was Jesus the servant of the Father? Of course. He was the Lamb of God (John 1:29). So of course the apostles will be in Heaven. In fact, Jesus told them they would sit on 12 thrones and judge the tribes of Israel (Matthew 19:28). But that does not mean that Jesus was the Father. He is one with the Father, but separate and distinct from Him.
So now that Bill and I have tried to answer your questions, will you please stop ducking our questions and answer them? Like, if Jehovah said He created the universe “By Myself” (Isaiah 44:24), then why do John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 say that Christ created all things? Did Jehovah do the creating by Himself or did He have help? And does Revelation 1:17-18 mean that the Father was dead, yet is now alive? (refer to Isaiah 44:6).
The Jewish God “YHVH” is the true God. Christianity is one BIG LIE and based upon the Jewish tradition..God said in the bible that whatever the jews will do he will never leave Jewish people. Never. Jesus was a stupid jew who thought he could fool the whole world. that is why jesus was handed over by the jews to the Romans who ,in turn, killed jesus..
Chiristianity is a peace of crap..Jesus is a peace of crap and so is Islam.
By the way..I am NOT jewish. I’m Swedish in orign.
Erik,
How do you know Jesus isn’t YHVH? Are you considering becoming a religious Jew? What are you going to do about your sin? The LORD is holy, and cannot let sin go unpunished.
I look forward to hearing more about your beliefs, however, I think that can be accomplished without calling names.
Thanks,
Bill
I am new to this website – this is my first comment. I am not sure if the line of this discussion is still open, based on the date of the last comment (almost 3 months ago).
Anyway I have been following the conversation and I have some questions.
To Tom Harvey:
You had repeatedly said “if Jesus was not God then we are all going to hell” based on Proverbs 17:15. I looked up that scripture and it is about judging wicked/righteous – Can you explain in a simple, clear, and concise manner how you link hell to the content of that scripture? Maybe we are reading from different translations but I do not see how that scripture is related to the topic of Jesus, Jehovah, God or the Trinity. Please explain. What is your preferred Bible translation and why?
To John/Anonymous:
You have both clearly stated that you are not JW. So what is your religious background (current and former associations)? I ask because you know a lot (at least more that most) about JW, so how did you learn it? What is your preferred Bible translation and why?
To Bill:
You are a Born-Again Christian – am I correct? Not very familiar with those beliefs, can you summarize the core doctrine of this denomination? (I know you believe in the trinity – but I think that has different meaning s to different people. Ex. F/S/HG – all same and equal or F/S/HG all part of one God, but different powers/duties/authority – not equal, but one)? What is your preferred Bible translation and why?
Thank You – A Bible Student
Biblestudent,
Thanks for your comment. I’m not sure Tom Harvey and John/Anon are going to see your comment, but I’ll try to answer. Maybe you could answer those questions (What are your beliefs? Are you JW? What translation?).
I’m born again Christian, and it’s not really a denomination. There are many denominations I would feel comfortable attending, and there may be small differences between those denominations (such as type of worship music preferred), but those denominations would agree on the basic requirements of the Bible.
There are 5 basic beliefs that define Christianity. You don’t believe these things to get saved or born again, you believe these things because you are born again. Here they are:
1) Jesus is both God and man (John 1:1,14; 8:24; Col. 2:9; 1 John 4:1-4).
2) Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; 1 Cor. 15:14).
3) Salvation is by grace through faith (Rom. 5:1; Eph. 2:8-9; Gal. 3:1-2; 5:1-4).
4) The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus according to the scriptures (1 Cor. 15:1-4; Gal. 1:8-9).
5) There is only one God (Exodus 20:3; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8)
The Trinity is defined as one God in three persons. Each person of the Trinity is co-equal and co-eternal.
I’ll do my best to answer your question about Proverbs 17:15.
I think that verse provides an excellent definition of justice: ensuring that the guilty are punished and the innocent are set free. There are several implications for the gospel.
JWs teach that Jesus is a created being, and never sinned. If that were true, God punished an innocent man, and is unjust. They also teach that salvation isn’t by grace alone through faith alone. That means you must do certain deeds to earn your salvation. That is bribery, and would make God unjust.
Jesus must be God, because God is the only one capable of paying for our sins. He’s the only one who could offer payment while maintaining His justice.
Thanks,
Bill
Saying that Jesus suffering although he was innocent makes God unjust is…
Jesus suffered on the cross to save us. This was no punishment, it was the will of his father for us to be saved. It is also a lesson in many ways. We all suffer in this life, the more we suffer for our father the better the afterlife will be. Those of us who are not of this world all suffer. Those of us who serve the lord and not the world will suffer in the world. The bible is much deeper than these posts go
Also, yes faith alone won’t save us. But deeds (bribery) isn’t what does. Repentance. Faith and repentance
The Trinity makes sense of what Jesus did on the cross. The Watchtower’s theology makes it nonsense. According to you, Jesus was a created being who never sinned. But the Father poured out His wrath on a sinless created being. This is the epitome of injustice.
Proverbs 17:15…if Jesus is not God and just a “created” being then God justifying Him was an abomination.
only God could bare the wrath for the sins of man.
Why are ya’ll fighting about this?
Do you think God would be happy to see ya’ll do this?
Marysol,
God provided one way to get to heaven. He didn’t have to do that, but He did. If someone is not on that one road to heaven, don’t you think it’s good to warn them?
What about you? What do you think is going to happen to you when you die and why?
Thanks,
Bill
John 20:27-28…Jesus rose up from the dead as a flesh an blood man…He assended to heaven this way and will return to earth this way….Jesus is God…God planned it all out from the start….that is why all these things happened the way they did cause they were meant to, God proved his love for us, when he died on a cross…what use would it have been if Jesus was not God…it would have proved nothing…God died for his children…Just like I would for mine=)That is why we have children, it helps us to see God…When we punish our children, we don’t yell at them at the top of our lungs point our finger at them and force them to listen, no!!!we come down to their level, we look into their eyes and lovingly speak to them…we pass judgement and punish them accordingly….That’s what God did, he came down to our level…he became dust just like us….he relates to us….he set an example himself….he proved it once and for all, he is God and he is love…because he died, he did not died for good people either, but wicked evil sinners like you an me, no one can say he is a lair or question his authority like the devil did….actions speak louder then words…Gods actions are clear, he loves us, came to save us, he let it all things happen, to be able to prove his love….
God is love, we sometimes have to just let someone believe what they believe, Jesus never forced people to believe in him…humans are humans, no one will ever agree with another, I think the hardest thing too do is hold in what you beleive….God is the final judge, so let it be….you can rebuked someone until your blue in the face an get no where…but if you just be quite and hold on to what u know, then nothing else matters…Jesus said, it is finshed….not to be continued, Love your enemies, do good to those that curse you and spitefully use you, pray for others, ask God to speak to them…he is able…it is not our place to force our beleifs on others…with love in Christ Jesus….
Hi folks,
I just chanced on this site and your discussions seem interesting. I have some experience with JWs too. However, they decided not to see me anymore. Not that I would be so good at discussing issues of Christian faith, though there were a few questions posed they were not able to answer, but we were kind of stuck. We just disagreed with each other – you know different interpretations of what the Bible says and they probably realised that I am a lost case (not making any progress in becoming a potential member of their organisation). To be honest I miss them. Anyway, while reading some of your comments I chanced on a couple of things said about Catholics and the Church and I’d like to clear up some misconceptions.
First, If Catholics do not trust the Bible I wonder then who does. How can a Catholic (a true one) even say sth like I do not trust the Bible?
Second, I am not sure what exactly is meant by saying that Catholics place the tradition of men over the Bible, however, I do not think this is the case – but, then, you probably do not know or understand the Latin phrase: Norma normans non normata – loosely translated this means: The norm (Bible) that norms all other norms and is itself unnormed as opposed to the doctrine of sola scriptura for which I do not see any back up in the Bible whatsoever (if I am wrong, please, show me at least one). Catholics certainly stick to tradition BUT whatever these are they must not oppose the Bible
Also, though it is true that we do pray to Holy Mary and saints (well, it is an intercessory prayer, which is not the same as praying to God but should anyone be puzzled just let me knot and I will try to explain it) I do not agree that this is a blasphemy – in that case it would be the Bible itself that would teach a blasphemy- a proposition I do not quite like.
Well, that is all for now as I do not even know whether someone takes the time to read it at all. God bless you all,
Martin
the first evidence you provided in the first column is very wrong because both scriptures are mentioned only about Jehovah. I am not want argue, but read bible.. and read bible and listen what Churches saying about all these things.
if churches says wrong compare to bible.. go to a Jehovah Witness’s Kingdom Hall. listen it…
Shamin George,
I guess you’re referring to Alpha and Omega. Did you look up the biblical references? It’s clear that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega in Revelation 22:13 whether you like it or not.
Thanks,
Bill
I have to give credit to the Zeal of witnessing by the JW and Mormons. Unfortunately they have been mislead. JW teach as well that they are God’s prophet. If you look up what the Bible says about False prophet, and then look at their own literature about false prophesies, then realize that God doesn’t lie. The only conclusion that anybody should come up with is that they have no credibility and anything they say should be understood as false. Consider the following
God in the Old Testament or Hebrew Scriptures (JW NWT) was seen throughout by many, many times Genesis 3:8, Exodus 24:9-11, Genesis 17:1, Genesis 18:1; Exodus 6:2-3 Exodus 33:11 (Lord used to speak to Moses face to face) and finally Acts 7:2
Now consider the following: Exodus 33:20, John 1:18, 1 Timothy 6:16, John 6:46 – In essence No man can see God. O.K. man through out the Bible/history have not seen GOD, God who the Father/Jehovah/YAWH,
So which is it haven’t seen or seen. Consider the following God doesn’t lie. So who were the OT people seeing if they have not seen God, if not the Father, then………………………must have been the creator Jesus
don’t fight, the bible says that, the devil used the bible against god, we should do the same than Jesus, glorify his Father, our Father, our creator, if someone wants to fight, turn around and clean your “shoes”, you want to fight, why, what that makes you? Doesn’t says the bible that the true followers would be hated? do you hate? do you love to tell the true about God with your own words or like Jesus said? if we are not with Him, who you are with? Love over all things, God is LOVE, stop making a show for the devil, he is laughting.
Hello Juanskarlos,
I’m not sure about your line of thinking. You didn’t provide any Bible references, and without those, it is only your opinion. It seems as though you’re not following your own advice by posting what you posted. I would say we certainly shouldn’t lose our temper, or debate someone for selfish reasons, but debate is acceptable.
Acts 17:17 says, “So [Paul] reasoned in the synagogue with both Jews and God-fearing Greeks, as well as in the marketplace day by day with those who happened to be there.”
We reason with people, to show them that reasoning is valid only in the Christian worldview.
What are you referring to when you say we shouldn’t fight?
Thanks,
Bill
First off, Jehovah’s Witnesses are not selfish. They do not walk door to door not caring for people. They have helped so many. Even if you are rude and tell them they are ignorant, they still offer to help with anything.
Secondly, it is ridiculous to believe Jesus is Jehovah. I love Jesus, he has saved us, as Jehovah’s only son. Everywhere in the bible says he is the Son, and he works through our father. He never casts demons out himself, or did any miraculous things himself, he did them through Jehovah. Several times Jesus commands to not be worshiped, bc it is against the ten commandments, and it is not him who should be worshiped but his father.
Jehovah’s Witnesses never push things on ppl, they simply ask that u ask Jehovah for wisdom and truth.
All. Of the “evidence” u have stating Jesus is Jehovah is simply ur own perspective of the verses. Which is why there are so many religions, they r all peoples perspectives. Ask for the fathers truth.
Hi Brooke,
Thanks for the comment.
You said, “Everywhere in the bible says he is the Son”
Jesus said He was the Son of Man and the Son of God. What do those terms mean? Do you think they mean the same thing?
You said, “He never casts demons out himself, or did any miraculous things himself, he did them through Jehovah.”
Would you agree that I would only have to find one example that contradicts your statement, and I would prove that the Watchtower is false, and your Christology is wrong? I might cite verses like John 2:11, 19 or maybe John 10:18 where Jesus says, “I have authority to lay it [His life] down, and I have authority to take it up again.” He was claiming to have the authority to raise Himself from the dead. If that isn’t a claim to being God, I don’t know what would be.
You said, “Several times Jesus commands to not be worshiped”
I’d love to see your citation of that; I don’t think you can provide any. Jesus accepts worship repeatedly, such as John 20:28.
You said, “All. Of the “evidence” u have stating Jesus is Jehovah is simply ur own perspective of the verses. Which is why there are so many religions, they r all peoples perspectives. Ask for the fathers truth.”
I’m willing to provide exegesis of any of the verses in the post. There is only one correct interpretation. It is interesting that you say all I offer is my own perspective, and then offer your own perspective.
Thanks,
Bill
JEHOVAH said “I am coming and I will live among you..I will live among you and you will know that the JEHOVAH of Hosts has sent me to you” – Zechariah 2:10-11
Jesus said “They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me”- John 17:8
Perfect match Zechariah 2:11 = John 17: 8
JEHOVAH came as JESUS.
+++++++++++++++++
A voice of one calling in the desert, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord,make straight paths for him.’” – Matthew 3: 3
A voice of one calling: “In the desert prepare the way for the JEHOVAH; make straight in the wilderness a highway for our God – Isaiah 40:3
I think I may have overlooked this particular comment.
Sudheer, you really are full of mischief! Did you really believe I would fall for that one?
Typical how RC Trinitarians twist the meaning of verses by taking them out of context and /or by omission try and make them fit their false doctrine.
In no way can the RC Trinity doctrine be derived from Zechariah 2:10-11. It is a prophecy about the coming of the future Messiah, Jesus Christ, in the same vein as Isaiah 53.
Jesus’ words in the book of John confirm the prophecy, there is only one true God, Yahweh (YHWH) Sabaoth is His name, and He sent His Son, Jesus Christ:
John 3:16 KJV
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 17:8 KJV
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
John 17:3 KJV
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
The RC Trinity doctrine collapses at John 17:3, the Father is the ONLY TRUE God. Note that he did not say that the only true God is ‘the Father and Jesus Christ’ combined!
If the Father is the only true God, then the RC Trinity nonsense of each ‘person’, ‘Father’ and Son’ being equal and two persons of a three person ‘being’ called the ‘Triune God’ is just that – pure nonsense!
Now, let’s look at Zechariah 2:10-12, this time without omitting any words. My words are in brackets for clarity:
Zechariah 2:10-12 KJV
10 Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the LORD. (GOD)
11 And many nations shall be joined to the LORD (GOD)in that day, and shall be my people: and I (JESUS) will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the LORD (GOD) of hosts hath sent me (JESUS) unto thee.
As you can see, this is in perfect harmony with the Gospel message.
What people forget is that Jesus said that his Father dwells in him; that his Father did the miracles, not him, and that in everything he strove to do his Father’s will, and not his own. It is not incorrect for us to refer to Jesus as our God, as we are to honour him as we honour the Father (John 5:23 KJV); but the Father is the one True God.
For more understanding on this read 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 KJV below:
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
Please note, in particular, verse 28.
For more understanding, please read my posts on this forum.
On the usage of YHWH in the Old Testament and the meaning of Shaliach, please read my post on this forum dated October 3, 2012 at 11:59 am
My comments are at Shailin/havefaithinjesus
Bill, this comment covers not only your error of following the RC Trinity Doctrine, but also the false doctrine of Oneness. However, I would like to state that I am not a JW, Pentecostalist, Baptist, SDA, RC, Charismatic, or any of the other church denominations- I am simply a christian of the body of Christ.
For your information Bill, John 10:18 ends with:
‘This commandment I HAVE RECEIVED OF MY FATHER’ KJV(emphasis mine) and this is further proved in:
Acts 2:22-24 KJV:
22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Also
Acts 3:13-15 KJV:
13 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go.
14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
Also, the Father’s involvement in Jesus’ birth in the flesh:
Acts 7:37 KJV
37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
John 5:26-27
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
26 For as the Father hath life in himself, so he hath given the Son also to have life in himself:
27 And he hath given him power to do judgment, because he is the Son of man.
(PLEASE NOTE: God the Father ‘GAVE the Son life, He GAVE the Son power, He GAVE the Son the authority to Judge..’ because the Son is lesser to the Father. If he was not, he would have no need to be given these! Someone who gives another authority to do things is obviously greater than the other.)
John 1:18
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
18 No man hath seen God at any time: the only begotten Son who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
John 5:30-37
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
30 I cannot of myself do any thing. As I hear, so I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
33 You sent to John, and he gave testimony to the truth.
34 But I receive not testimony from man: but I say these things, that you may be saved.
35 He was a burning and a shining light: and you were willing for a time to rejoice in his light.
36 But I have a greater testimony than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to perfect; the works themselves, which I do, give testimony of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself who hath sent me, hath given testimony of me: neither have you heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Please note that Verse 37 is repeated again in John 1:18 (above) and that Jesus was ‘sent’. In order to send someone, the person who does the sending must be in authority, or else the person would not be ‘sent’ but would have gone of his own accord.
John 8:14-18
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
14 Jesus answered, and said to them: Although I give testimony of myself, my testimony is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go: but you know not whence I come, or whither I go.
15 You judge according to the flesh: I judge not any man.
16 And if I do judge, my judgment is true: because I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17 And in your law it is written, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that give testimony of myself: and the Father that sent me giveth testimony of me.
@Bill-Therefore, please note: Jesus and the Father are not the same being, and are not co-equal.
John 14:10 KJV:
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 17:3:
3 Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Matthew 16:16-17 KJV:
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him,Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
John 10:33-36 KJV:
33 The Jews answered him, saying , For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said , Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came , and the scripture cannot be broken ;36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified , and sent into the world , Thou blasphemest ; because I said , I am the Son of God?
Please note, you are incorrect when you say Jesus (or ‘Yahshua’ in Hebrew) is Yahweh, the Father.
Jesus never said he is the Yahweh, the Father God Almighty, he said he is the Son of God.
Neither is Jesus equal to the Father.
John 14:28
You have heard that I said to you: I go away, and I come unto you. If you loved me, you would indeed be glad, because I go to the Father: for the Father is greater than I.
@Bill, what part of the above sentence did you not understand?
Do you not understand what ‘greater than’ means? Jesus is saying that he is not as great as his Father. Therefore his Father is greater than him. Therefore the Son is less than the Father. Would you agree?
But the RC Trinity doctrine says that the Father and the Son are co-equal? Therefore, who is the Liar? Is Jesus a Liar or is the RC Trinity Doctrine a Lie? Please answer this!
John 20:17
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God.
@Bill- Do you agree that this means that Jesus has a God, and the God of mankind is His Father?
Whatever glory Christ has is given him by the Father, in that the Father has given judgement to Jesus, so that all men should honour the Son as they honour the Father (John 5:23). But this does not make Jesus ‘The Almighty’. This title is not shared in Revelation, but is solely reserved for the Father, which again confirms Isaiah, that the Almighty will not give his glory to another, the glory being in the title. Yes, in Revelation, Jesus is divine, but he is not the Almighty.
Authority, power and judgement were all GIVEN to Christ by the Father, God Almighty.
Please do read and understand 1 Corinthians 15:23-28. This is only confirmed in Revelation when one acknowledges that Jesus is the Son, and that Yahweh the Father, is God Almighty. They cannot be each other.In Revelation 3:12, Jesus says he has a God four times! Jesus is the Lamb of God who takes the book from Yahweh’s hand. As we know, scripture cannot be overturned and will not contradict itself. God is not the author of confusion.
In John 10:30 Jesus says ‘I and the Father are one’. The context in the books of John was to indicate unity, that they are of the same accord, that they are in agreement. It follows on from Jesus praying to his Father that his followers will be one as he and his Father are one, that is, unified, and not the same being!
John 17:11 KJV
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
The Roman Catholic Trinity doctrine says that the Father and the Son are equal and the same.
So, is Jesus praying to himself here? But then he uses ‘we’, and not ‘I am’- see what confusion the RC trinity doctrine creates? But God is not the author of confusion.In actual fact the context is one of agreement or of one accord. See for yourself:
John 17:21 KJV
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:23 KJV
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Now let us look at some more sayings of Jesus:
John 12:44-45 KJV
44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
Here, someone who believes the words of Jesus believes the words of the Father who sent him. Here, someone who sees the actions of Jesus, sees the actions of the Father who sent him. Remember, Jesus is the image of the invisible God, the Father. This does not mean that he is the Father himself! Scripture and the Gospel will never contradict itself.
If you say that Jesus is Yahweh, the Father, then you have denied them both. You are denying the testimony each gives of each other. Do you understand what this means? In effect, you have nullified them both and created a false God. Please check this out, you are in gross error.
Shailin@
Who is Holy spirit according to you? Is he lesserthan the True GOD?
@ Sudheer- I’ve posted my reply to Bill. Read it- you might learn something
(Reply is posted as Shailin/Havefaithinjesus )
Shailin@
Jesus who is Jehovah one among the Triune GOD reduced his Glory as Son of Man.
Do you know why Jesus said “My father is greater than I”
My soul is greater than my body.
My Body can do nothing other than will of my soul
Whoever sees my body can see my soul.
My body and My soul together are one.
My body lives in my soul and my soul lives in my body.
Philip: “Show me Father”
Jesus: I am with you for the long time dont you recognize me??
LORD GOD says: I am Alpha and Omega – Rev 1:8
JESUS says: I am Alpha and Omega – Rev 21: 6
JEHOVAH said “I am coming and I will live among you..I will live among you and you will know that the JEHOVAH of Hosts has sent me to you” – Zechariah 2:10-11
Jesus said “They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me”- John 17:8
Tell me who sais that he will come and live among us? – Jehovah
Who actually lived – Jesus?
@Sudheer- Your Triune God is nothing but a figment of your imagination, no where to be found in the Bible, the concept unheard of by Christ, his apostles and the early church fathers up until at least the second century.
But since you believe in a triune god, and since each ‘person in the trinity’ cannot be each other (your rules, not mine), then, by claiming that Jesus is the Father you have just tied yourself in a proverbial knot.Well done! Even Houdini could not get himself out of that one.
And No. ‘The Father is greater than I’ does not mean what you suggest, it simply means exactly what it says. You see, Jesus had his own will, which he conformed to that of his Father, by his own choice, so your analogy of soul and body falls flat:
Luke 22:42 KJV Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done
Jesus grew in wisdom and stature and in favour with God and Man (Luke 2:52). If he was the Father, he would have no need to learn wisdom.Please confine your replies with reference to scripture, chapter and verse and not extensions of your over active mind.
The verses you quote from Zechariah can be explained by my quotes in my previous post if you had bothered reading it properly. I’ve pasted some of the relevant quotes below:
John 8:14-18
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
14 Jesus answered, and said to them: Although I give testimony of myself, my testimony is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go: but you know not whence I come, or whither I go.
15 You judge according to the flesh: I judge not any man.
16 And if I do judge, my judgment is true: because I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me.
17 And in your law it is written, that the testimony of two men is true.
18 I am one that give testimony of myself: and the Father that sent me giveth testimony of me.
THEREFORE JESUS AND THE FATHER CANNOT BE THE SAME OR JESUS WOULD BE A LIAR.So your analogy of soul and body falls flat.
John 5:30-32
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
30 I cannot of myself do any thing. As I hear, so I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.
31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
John 5:37
Douay-Rheims 1899 American edition (DRA)
37 And the Father himself who hath sent me, hath given testimony of me: neither have you heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
NO MAN HAS SEEN THE FATHER. BUT MAN HAS SEEN JESUS.THEREFORE JESUS CANNOT BE THE FATHER.
John 14:10 KJV:
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
John 5:43 KJV
I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
Now to explain Zechariah 2:10-11:
The name for Son of God in the original Hebrew is ‘Yahshua’ which means ‘Yahweh is Salvation’ or ‘Yahweh Saves’.
Yahweh started his plan of salvation by sending His Son in His own name.Yahweh dwells in Christ, as Christ said in John 14:10 above. It is Yahweh dwelling in Christ who performed the miracles. Truly, Yahweh dwelt and is dwelling amongst men now.Yahweh will complete His plan of salvation when he comes again with Christ on Judgement Day.
You asked:
“Tell me who sais that he will come and live among us? – Jehovah Who actually lived – Jesus?”
This shows your lack of knowledge.Have you forgotten that Christ himself said that he would return with his Father:
Mark 14:62 KJV
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
And have you forgotten about Stephen?
Acts 7:55 KJV
But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
And finally, Revelation 21:3 KJV:
And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God iswith men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
and remember, ‘The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM…. Rev 1:1
If jesus is Yahweh, why do we have two figures in Revelation?
Please answer this, Revelation 3:12 and all the other points I made in my two posts.
Shailin@
Explain this: Who are these 2 Jehovahs in this verses?
JEHOVAH said “I am coming and I will live among you..I will live among you and you will know that the JEHOVAH of Hosts has sent me to you” – Zechariah 2:10-11
+++++++++++++++++++
In simple way I am explaining:
Father, Son, Holy spirit all together 3in one God. I can say 3 Jehovahs together 1 GOD. No one are able to see him. Even Angels cant see him but they can Identify God by his Glory.
Among those 3, one has come as son of man to get flesh and to show Love of GOD. Now in order to appear to every one, one Jehovah who got flesh gets seperate from GOD who seated on the throne and sits beside him.
If human has 3 personalities Body, Soul and spirit. What is wrong in God having 3 personalities ?
If God says “I will send my spirit” Does it not mean that he is not the spirit which he is sending??
Your body, Soul and spirit all have equal human glory.
Your own soul only reveals thoughts to your body. your body do things which your soul says to you. your soul is not seperate from body. but together one.
Our body do not have immortality like our soul.
God is so great he is uncomparable with human.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it – Rev 5:3
I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. – Rev 5:4
Tell me why John could not find any one there in heaven who can open it?
Even he did not find son of man there at the right hand of the GOD. He was invisible inside the GOD.
Suddenly son of man who was hiding inside the triune God who seated on the throne came out!!!!
Now son of man came out and seated at Right hand of the GOD.
Now John was happy. Becaz he found Jesus there suddenly!!
Jehovah said I wont give my Glory to any one.
How come every one in heaven glorifying Son of man?—>>
Rev 5:12In a loud voice they sang:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
We should worship only to GOD.
But why every one worshiping Jesus ?—->>>
Rev 5:14The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
You did not answers BILLS question!!!
If A= B and B=C , iWhy A=/=C?
@ Sudheer,
I have already answered your question in my second post. Please open your eyes and read it. Now please stop being evasive and answer the questions and points I posed to you. You have not answered a single one. I read ‘The Gospel According To Sudheer’- Highly entertaining, in fact I have not laughed so much in a long time- but I prefer the original and authentic version, the Gospel of Jesus Christ, who says:
John 17:3:
3 Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
By the way Sudheer, a ‘body’ is not a ‘personality’.I just thought I should mention that in case it helps. And as for the Algebra Masterclass you offered at the end, Bill never actually asked me a question, but let’s see. As I see it, what you are saying is that a 100 per cent human plus a 100 per cent human plus a 100 per cent human = 3 people, and a 100 per cent God plus a 100 per cent God plus a 100 per cent God = 1 God. Brilliant. Thank you so much, I am now saved!!!
Now that we have dispensed with the lunacy, perhaps you will make a serious attempt at answering my questions.
@ Bill
A typical RC trinitarian response fom you. You do not even acknowledge that you misrepresented John 10:18, as I pointed out in my first post to you, but instead you accuse me of taking John 14:28 out of context. Please tell me the context it should be in then.
And Nope- you’re still in a knot. Your doctrine states that each ‘person’ of the Trinity is 100 per cent God.No more, no less. If there is only One God, as you say the Bible says, then this God is the Almighty by default. And therefore, each of your three ‘persons’ of the Trinity must all be the Almighty by your own definition. So in fact, you say that Jesus is the Father, and that the Spirit is the Father, in order for you to make three gods into one God. You then ADMIT that the Father is greater than the Son, in some situations, and in some situations you say Jesus is co-equal with the Father.
Well, you have just witnessed your RC Trinity doctrine crumble before your very eyes. The Father is either greater than the Son or He isn’t. There can be no middle ground.
Now, you say that no Trinitarian here has said that Jesus is the Father. Well, you might want to ask your friend Sudheer what he thinks. But what do you really think? Let’s see what you posted on Dec 8 2008 at 4.45pm on this topic( or pls scroll up)- I’ve pasted part of your response to Erik below:
Bill says:
December 8, 2008 at 4:45 pm
“Erik,
How do you know Jesus isn’t YHVH? Are you considering becoming a religious Jew? What are you going to do about your sin? The LORD is holy, and cannot let sin go unpunished.”
My comment: What do you have to say to the above statement you made, Bill? You lied when you said that you didn’t believe Jesus is Yahweh, didn’t you?
Bill says:
October 9, 2008 at 6:21 pm
“John,
You or Anonymous have acknowledged that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega (the Alpha and Omega is identified as God Almighty in Revelation 1:8).”
Bill says:
Feb 26 2009 at 10 am:
“Jesus must be God, because God is the only one capable of paying for our sins. He’s the only one who could offer payment while maintaining His justice.”
In case you didn’t know, Bill, Yahweh is the name of the Father.
Now, please specifically answer the questions and points I raised in this and my first post to you, and please don’t throw any smokescreens but stay on the subject. And please don’t worry about my salvation- I am in Good hands.
Shailin@
Body, soul, spirit – Using these words i tried to explain you. you are litterally taking it.
+++++++++++++++
It is not our work to talk about who is greater or Jesus = Father!!
Salvation is by believe in Jesus that He died and rose from the dead for our sins. Believe in Jesus as son of GOD.
Jesus is the way to GOD.
He reduced his glory and came as son of man and showed us how to Live and how to pray.
I believe, this is common between JWs and Christians
Rev 5:12In a loud voice they sang:
“Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!”
Rev 5:14The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.
in heaven both Jesus and Father together worshiped so we can worship and glorified both of them.
————————————
Jesus clearly told that He will come from heaven as how he ascended. Every eye will see him. Jesus clearely told that :if any man shall say unto you, Look, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. – math 24:23
Hello Shailin,
Thanks for your comments.
There are two issues.
You said, “But since you believe in a triune god, and since each ‘person in the trinity’ cannot be each other (your rules, not mine), then, by claiming that Jesus is the Father you have just tied yourself in a proverbial knot.Well done!”
No trinitarian here has claimed Jesus is the Father. That is not what we believe. So, you don’t have a proper understanding of the doctrine of the trinity.
The second problem is, like the Jehovah’s Witnesses, you take a verse out of context and run with it. You have to understand every verse in its context.
Taking John 14:28 as an example, there is a context in which the Father is greater than Jesus, and there is a context in which the Father and Jesus are co-equal. This is consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity.
As far as your lack of understanding of the Trinity, I would recommend studying the Trinity further. You’re not going to convince anyone of anything here by burning straw men.
To a certain extent, this is a secondary issue. Your salvation is of the utmost importance.
Are you trusting in Christ alone for your salvation, or do you think you have to also be baptized or go to church, or do x, y and z to be saved?
Thanks,
Bill
Shailin,
Your posts are full of straw men. The more you speak the more you reveal your ignorance of what Trinitarians actually believe.
Then, you claim to be a Christian, but you are becoming more and more caustic. This is not how Christians behave, and I’m very worried about your salvation.
In John 8:24, Jesus said, “Therefore I said to you that you (AI)will die in your sins; for unless you believe that [f](AJ)I am He, (AK)you will die in your sins.”
If you don’t have a proper understanding of who Jesus is, you will die in your sins.
1 Peter 3:15-16 says, “but [i]sanctify (AA)Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready (AB)to make a [j]defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the (AC)hope that is in you, yet (AD)with gentleness and [k](AE)reverence; 16 [l]and keep a (AF)good conscience so that in the thing in which (AG)you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.”
If you’re going to attempt apologetics, you are commanded to do it with gentleness and reverence.
You’ve shown that you’re not willing to have a respectful conversation, and represent the doctrine of the Trinity truthfully. If you can do those things, we can continue the conversation. Otherwise, you’ll be banned from this site.
Thanks,
Bill
For Bill and Sudheer:
@ Bill: Don’t be a hypocrite.You quote 1 Peter 3:15-16 and yet what defense have you offered? Nothing, instead you make accusations that my posts are full of straw men, again without proving why you think they are so. Present your arguments honestly, defend them with scripture, prove that the RC Trinity doctrine you follow is true if you believe it to be so. Instead, you and your friend Sudheer have repeatedly refused to answer my questions.You, Bill, have refused to acknowledge the false statements you made earlier even when I proved that you made them by pasting a copy of your own statements which you had made earlier on this very forum.You have still to explain why you think Jesus is Yahweh.And this belief overturns your RC Trinity doctrine. You simply ignored this. Is that Christian behaviour?
Titus 3:10-11 KJV
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.
I therefore repeat again the closing words of my first post to both of you:
If you say that Jesus is Yahweh, the Father, then you have denied them both. You are denying the testimony each gives of each other. Do you understand what this means? In effect, you have nullified them both and created a false God. Please check this out, you are in gross error.
Hello Shailin,
I would guess I’ve responded to all of your arguments in this post or at least on this blog somewhere. I’m not obligated to answer every obnoxious mocker that comes along.
This blog is full of that. It’s not my fault you’re unwilling to read it. Do you expect me to copy and paste it for you?
I’m under no obligation to do so. However, you’re obligated to speak with gentleness and reverence if you have indeed sanctified Christ as Lord (1 Peter 3:15).
They’re not false. You just don’t understand what I was saying. Do you want me to spoon feed you this information, or can you go to a library or the internet and attempt to find a proper explanation of the Trinity. I will spoon feed you if you like, but you certainly haven’t asked me to. All you’ve done is mock.
Again, do I need to copy and paste for you, or can you even scroll up to the original post to see why I believe Jesus is Yahweh?
Again, Trinitarians believe Jesus is Yahweh. That doesn’t mean the Jesus is the Father. This is not a contradiction, and if you don’t understand it, look it up or ask me to explain it to you. You are merely demonstrating your ignorance.
True Christians love the truth. If I want to debate a Muslim, my purpose is to win Muslims to Christ. If I wanted to show them their beliefs were wrong, I would have to accurately, and truthfully represent their beliefs in order to do that. It wouldn’t do me any good to falsely accuse them of believing something they don’t believe. I would only be demonstrating that I’m ignorant of their beliefs, and showing that Christians don’t care about the truth.
If I want to debate Muslims, I would have to take the time to learn what they believe. This takes time and effort.
When you continually misrepresent the Trinity, you’re demonstrating that you don’t care about the truth (which is sinful). Furthermore, you are not going to convince any Trinitarians they’re wrong, anyway, because you’re not demonstrating the falsity of something they actually believe.
There will be no reason to continue talking to you if you insist on repeating the same falsehoods. Trinitarians don’t believe Jesus is the Father. Maybe you should read a book on this topic, and come back after you’ve taken the time to learn what we really believe.
Thanks,
Bill
@ Bill
You really should be ashamed of yourself. You accuse me of using ‘caustic’ words or of being ‘caustic’ but you are quick to call me an ‘obnoxious mocker’ and ‘ignorant’ (although actually, in the present company I rather take it as a compliment). If that is not meant to be caustic, I don’t know what is! ‘Hypocrite’ seems to be your middle name.
I am able to refute the RC Trinity doctrine because I know exactly what it means and have proved it to be a doctrine of demons. If anyone needs to be spoon fed it is you- you do not even understand the fundamentals. But unlike you, I do not make glib statements but I explain why I say the things I say. I said that you do not even understand the fundamentals. Let me explain why:
Now, you say you believe that Yahweh is Jesus, but that no Trinitarian believes that Jesus is the Father. This is a contradiction in terms.Yahweh IS the Father:
Matthew 22:32 ESV
‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”
Jesus is referring to his God, HIS FATHER. Ask any Jew, or better still, any Jewish Christian (he can probably explain the Hebrew to you better than I can), who Jesus claims is His Father and they will reply YHWH or Yahweh, that is the name of the true God of the Torah and of whom Jesus refers to as His Father.This is a fundamental.Of course, you will not believe me, so pick up any Bible, look at what texts they have been translated from and you will see that the Father’s name is Yahweh and Jesus (actually ‘Yahshua’ in Hebrew) knows Him by this name. Try the New Jerusalem Bible, or the KJV or the NIV or the Aramaic Bibles or the Hebrew Bibles. That Yahweh is the the name of the one true God of the Bible is an established fact for more than three thousand years.
If Trinitarians seriously do not know this, as you yourself claim, it only offers further proof of my claim that the RC Trinity doctrine is a doctrine of demons.
Some more of your contradictory statements pasted below (or please scroll up):
billphillips says:
August 6, 2007 at 5:16 pm
Steve,
Thanks for your comment.
Why do you believe that the list of titles is meaningless? If Jesus calls Himself the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, which are names Jehovah has reserved for Himself, He is claiming to be one with God.
I’m saying there is one God. The Father is God. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God.
How many gods do you believe there are? Are you born again?
Thanks,
Bill
. Bill says:
September 9, 2008 at 7:27 pm
John,
If someone worships anyone other than the one true God, they are idolaters (Matthew 4:10, 1st and 2nd Commandments). If you worship Jesus and the Father, then there is no mistaking it, you’re a polytheist.
There is only one God. I have a long list of verses saying so, which you can look at: https://billphillips.wordpress.com/2007/11/02/how-many-gods-are-there/
My comment: You worship Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit. Would you say that you are a Polytheist then, as you say in your above post?
Shailin,
You are misrepresenting my beliefs, and therefore, the arguments you make are not effective. I don’t know how else to explain it.
If you would like me to explain it to you, you can simply ask, and I would do so. But what you’ve now done is twist and misunderstand my words. Rather than accusing me of stating contradictions, why don’t you simply ask me to explain it to you?
I don’t see any point in debating the doctrine of the Trinity with an unsaved person. You need to repent and believe the true gospel, and then, God will grant you understanding (Matt 16:17).
You are a sinner deserving of eternity in hell. If you’ve ever lied, you’re a liar. If you’ve ever stolen something you’re a thief. All liars will have their part in the lake of fire (Rev. 21:8). No thief will enter the kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6:9). The only way to have your sins forgiven is through the blood of Christ. It is not by the blood of Christ plus anything. It is by the blood of Christ alone.
I hope you’ll examine yourself to see if you’re in the faith.
Thanks,
Bill
@ Bill:
Not at all, Bill. I think I will start my reply with the words you so graciously used to a guest on this forum on Nov 29, 2007 at 10.15am, in the hope the penny will drop:
” Not to be a jerk, but are you being intentionally dense to bait me into continuing to talk, or do you really not get this? This is very simple to understand.”
You see, Bill, I have already asked you to answer my questions and explain yourself, more than twice in fact.
You are caught in your own snare, Bill, answer the questions, instead of trying to evade them. I have simply pasted YOUR responses to previous guests on your forum and summarised YOUR replies to mine (please scroll up). If you misrepresented what you actually meant by making those statements then you need to clarify those statements specifically, do not try to evade them.Your responses were on the same topics which you are now offering to re-explain. I will put them to you again, but I first want to clear up another issue you raised.
I note that you said in your last post to me:
“I don’t see any point in debating the doctrine of the Trinity with an unsaved person.”
So, can we now agree that a belief in the doctrine of the RC Trinity is not necessary for a person’s salvation? Clearly, a person must be ‘saved’ first before the topic can even be debated (you obviously consider me to be an ‘unsaved’ person, by whatever definition you have made up).
Contrast this with the true Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ which must be broadcast throughout the nations to all mankind, including pagans and gentiles.The Gospel of Christ is what we must believe in, not ‘Christ plus the RC Trinity doctrine.’
I will put the same questions to you again:
Now, you say you believe that Yahweh is Jesus, but that no Trinitarian believes that Jesus is the Father. This is a contradiction in terms.Yahweh IS the Father:
Matthew 22:32 ESV
‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”
1.Do you agree that Jesus is here referring to his Father?
2.You say that Yahweh is not Jesus’ Father, but say that Yahweh is Jesus,who then is Jesus’ Father?
3. What name do the Jews and Jewish Christians traditionally give to the Father of Jesus?
4. What is the name of the God of the Torah which is universally acknowledged for more than the past three thousand years
5. What is the name of the God that Jesus says is his Father?
Now the other questions you evaded:
Some more of your contradictory statements pasted below (or please scroll up):
billphillips says:
August 6, 2007 at 5:16 pm
Steve,
Thanks for your comment.
Why do you believe that the list of titles is meaningless? If Jesus calls Himself the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, which are names Jehovah has reserved for Himself, He is claiming to be one with God.
I’m saying there is one God. The Father is God. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God.
How many gods do you believe there are? Are you born again?
Thanks,
Bill
. Bill says:
September 9, 2008 at 7:27 pm
John,
If someone worships anyone other than the one true God, they are idolaters (Matthew 4:10, 1st and 2nd Commandments). If you worship Jesus and the Father, then there is no mistaking it, you’re a polytheist.
There is only one God. I have a long list of verses saying so, which you can look at: https://billphillips.wordpress.com/2007/11/02/how-many-gods-are-there/
My question: Bill, you say you worship Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit as Gods. Would you say that you are a Polytheist and idolater then, as you say in your above post?
What does our Lord Jesus Christ say?
John 17:3:
3 Now this is eternal life: That they may know thee, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
So, according to you then, Bill, if one worships Jesus and the Father, they are Polytheists and Idolaters?? This is what YOU said, not me.
John 5:22-26 KJV
22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Now, when I say that you are a false teacher, Bill, I am right, am I not?
Answer these questions truthfully and specifically, otherwise do not waste my time further. You have already been exposed as a false teacher. It does not matter now that you did not even bother to explain 1 Corinthians 15:23-28 and Rev 3:12 which I had asked you to earlier. If you do not even know that Yahweh is Jesus’ (Yahshua’s) Father and that Jesus is not Yahweh, then you are already lost.
Shailin,
You said, “So, can we now agree that a belief in the doctrine of the RC Trinity is not necessary for a person’s salvation?”
That is the fallacy of poisoning the well. The Trinity isn’t Roman Catholic; it is biblical. Believing in the Trinity, isn’t necessary for salvation, but denying that Jesus is the I AM would mean you’re not saved (John 8:24, 58).
You said, “Now, you say you believe that Yahweh is Jesus, but that no Trinitarian believes that Jesus is the Father. This is a contradiction in terms.Yahweh IS the Father:”
If you want to debate the Trinity, you must learn how to accurately represent what Trinitarians believe (which I’ve stated now how many times?). Maybe there are Christians that are so ignorant that you can trick them into denying your strawman definition of the Trinity. Is that what you want to do? Trick the must uneducated? Why don’t you pursue the truth and learn what we actually believe, and then you can maybe present a persuasive argument to someone who is educated.
Also, if you cannot misinterpret my simple writing and don’t understand that you can’t take things out of context with my writing, how do you expect to properly interpret Scripture?
I will give you a simple explanation of the Trinity, but I would encourage you to go read a book about the Trinity, written by a Trinitarian. It shows a lack of respect that you cannot take the time to learn what we believe. Many of your objections would be dispelled if you took the time to study.
Trinitarians believe that there is one God in three persons. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. But, the Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit.
A brick has being but not personhood. A human is one being and one person. The Trinity is one being in three persons. There is no analogy to help you understand. There is nothing else on earth like Him. However, just because there is no being like Him, doesn’t mean that the Trinity violates any laws of logic.
You said, “1.Do you agree that Jesus is here referring to his Father?”
He’s not speaking of the Father alone. He’s speaking of God. Oftentimes, the New Testament refers to the Father as God and Jesus as Lord. But not always.
You said, “2.You say that Yahweh is not Jesus’ Father, but say that Yahweh is Jesus,who then is Jesus’ Father?”
I never said that Yahweh is not the Father. Yahweh is the one true God. The Father is Yahweh. The Son is Yahweh. The Holy Spirit is Yahweh. Jesus is referred to as Yahweh in Genesis 18:1, Isaiah 6:3 (No one has seen the Father, but people have seen Yahweh).
You said, “3. What name do the Jews and Jewish Christians traditionally give to the Father of Jesus? 4. What is the name of the God of the Torah which is universally acknowledged for more than the past three thousand years. 5. What is the name of the God that Jesus says is his Father?”
Yahweh or the LORD.
You said, “Now the other questions you evaded:
Some more of your contradictory statements pasted below (or please scroll up):”
billphillips says:
August 6, 2007 at 5:16 pm
Steve,
Thanks for your comment.
Why do you believe that the list of titles is meaningless? If Jesus calls Himself the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, which are names Jehovah has reserved for Himself, He is claiming to be one with God.
I’m saying there is one God. The Father is God. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God.
How many gods do you believe there are? Are you born again?
Thanks,
Bill
. Bill says:
September 9, 2008 at 7:27 pm
John,
If someone worships anyone other than the one true God, they are idolaters (Matthew 4:10, 1st and 2nd Commandments). If you worship Jesus and the Father, then there is no mistaking it, you’re a polytheist.
There is only one God. I have a long list of verses saying so, which you can look at: https://billphillips.wordpress.com/2007/11/02/how-many-gods-are-there/
You said, “My question: Bill, you say you worship Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit as Gods. Would you say that you are a Polytheist and idolater then, as you say in your above post?”
First of all, that is a false accusation. I don’t worship “Gods” and have never said that I do. There is only one God and I worship Him alone. He is one God in 3 persons.
Putting false accusations aside, the question is based on your faulty interpretation of what I say. There is a context to every conversation. The same words have different meanings in different contexts.
John, and Arians in general, believe that Jesus is a god, and the Father is the God. So they believe in 2 gods. That makes them polytheists. That isn’t what I believe, and isn’t applicable to me.
You said, “Now, when I say that you are a false teacher, Bill, I am right, am I not?”
I’m afraid that you’re so uneducated on this topic that you don’t know your right hand from your left. Much less do you know enough of who to accuse of being a false teacher.
You said, “Answer these questions truthfully and specifically, otherwise do not waste my time further.”
Rest assured that neither of us will waste any more time on this.
I highly recommend you do research on this on your own time.
Thanks for the conversation.
Bill
Not so fast Bill. Before I address your other points, I must first deal with your eisegesis of John 8:24 and John 8:58.
You seem to have a habit of picking out verses and then taking their meaning totally out of context. The meaning of John 8:24 is not that Jesus is claiming that he is the ‘I AM’, but that he is in fact claiming to be the Christ, the Son of God!
Let me show your ignorance once and for all, by placing the verse back in context.
John 8:24 KJV
24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
25 Then said they unto him, Who art thou? And Jesus saith unto them, Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning.
Now, in v25, who is this ‘even the same that I said unto from the beginning?
Let’s read on to the next three verses, to find the context:
John 8:26-28 KJV
26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.
27 They understood not that he spake to them of the Father.
28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.
In v28, Jesus says he is the Son of Man. The fact that in v26 and v27 he says he was sent by his Father, who is God, immediately implies that Jesus is the Son of God. However, let’s go a little further back in the book of John to confirm that this is what Jesus meant in v25.
Note also that in v28 where Jesus says ‘I am he’ he is referring back to the words ‘Son of Man’ in the same sentence in v28.
We hear the term Son of Man used by Jesus again:
John 6:62-69 KJV
62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
These things were said to the Jews in the synagogue at Capernaum:
John 6:59 KJV
59 These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
But did Jesus say anything else confirming this?
Let’s move a little forward again on to John chapter 7:
John 7:14-16 KJV
14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.
15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
John 7:27-31 KJV
27 Howbeit we know this man whence he is: but when Christ cometh, no man knoweth whence he is.
28 Then cried Jesus in the temple as he taught, saying, Ye both know me, and ye know whence I am: and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not.
29 But I know him: for I am from him, and he hath sent me.
30 Then they sought to take him: but no man laid hands on him, because his hour was not yet come.
31 And many of the people believed on him, and said, When Christ cometh, will he do more miracles than these which this man hath done?
FURTHER PROOF:
John 9:35-38 KJV
35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.
Mark 13:6 KJV
6 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Mark 14:61-62 KJV
61 But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Please note the use of ‘I AM’ above in v62, and that it refers to the question asked by the high priest in v61.
John 8:58 merely testifies to Jesus pre-existence, that before Abraham was, Jesus was already existing.
Remember: the only charges the Jews could bring against Jesus was that he claimed that he could raise the temple in three days and that he claimed to be the SON OF GOD – NOT GOD HIMSELF! (Mark 14:58-59 KJV)
NOW,WHEN I SAY THAT YOU ARE A FALSE TEACHER, BILL, I AM RIGHT, AM I NOT?
Now, to deal with your statement that Jesus is Yahweh in Genesis 18:1 and Isaiah 6:3.
Actually, there are potentially three possible interpretations of this. I will state them first, and then explain them.
1.YHWH mentioned in Genesis 18:1 is actually the pre-existent Jesus- acting in the name of YHWH his Father
2. YHWH mentioned in Genesis 18:1 is actually the angel of the YHWH acting in the name of the Father
3.YHWH mentioned in Genesis 18:1 is actually a a manifestation of YHWH himself.
Let’s look at the relevant texts:
Genesis 18:1-3 KJV
18 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My LORD (YHWH), if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
Isaiah 6:3 KJV
3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD (YHWH) of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory
Now, at this juncture it would be useful to state exactly why you have referred me to Genesis 18 and Isaiah 6:3. It is because you think in these scriptures that the RC Trinity doctrine is being stated. Why?
1. The number ‘three’ is used
2. Abraham addresses the three men as LORD (YHWH) in the singular
3. Isaiah says that the word ‘holy’ was used three times.
Brilliant. Such logic! I agree, it’s a perfectly reasonable assumption to make if one is devoid of all common sense and uses one’s imagination. But it is not exegesis.
Firstly, I must say it is quite possible that Genesis 18-19 refer to Christ’s pre-existence. However, one cannot at all conclude that it is referring to the RC Trinity or that Jesus IS YHWH as you claim. This is a totally erroneous view. You see, you do not understand the Shaliach principle of agency. It is a Hebrew term used for a person empowered by someone else to act for him. In the Talmud, a person’s Shaliach (emissary) is considered himself, meaning, that whatever the emissary says or does can be taken that he is speaking or acting for the sender himself. That does not mean, however, that he is actually the sender! The Shaliach principle of agency is commonly found in the Bible and more examples will be provided later as proof.
If we examine Genesis 18-19 in the light of the Bible, we know that in the scripture, the term ‘men’ can also mean ‘ angels’. Indeed, we discover at least two of the three men mentioned in Genesis 18:2 and 18:22 are in fact angels if we read further in Genesis 19.
Please note, Bill and Sudheer: One Jesus plus two angels does not equal the RC Trinity Doctrine!
In fact, it may be more prudent, since all three were initially described as men, and now at least two have been positively identified as angels, to conclude that all three are angels of the Lord, and as they were acting for YHWH, that is, in his name, that they were themselves termed YHWH by the writer under the Shaliach principle :
Some more verses from Genesis 18 and 19:
Genesis 18:22 KJV
22 And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD (YHWH).
Genesis 19:1-5 KJV
19 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant’s house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
3 And he pressed upon them greatly; and they turned in unto him, and entered into his house; and he made them a feast, and did bake unleavened bread, and they did eat.
4 But before they lay down, the men of the city, even the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where are the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
In v5, the Sodomites call for Lot to give up the two men (the angels) who came to stay with him in the night.
Genesis 19:12-14 KJV
12 And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring them out of this place:
13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD (YHWH); and the LORD (YHWH) hath sent us to destroy it.
14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.
In v12 and v13, the angels, once again called men by the writer of Judges, warn Lot to bring the rest of the family out of the city because YHWH has sent THEM to destroy the city.
Note that v14 says that YHWH will destroy the city. Yet we are told that the third ‘man’ called YHWH by the writer of Judges, is still with Abraham (Gen 18:22).
Genesis 19:24 KJV
24 Then the LORD (YHWH) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (YHWH) out of heaven;
So, what then do we make of the above?
I
NTERPRETATION 1
As I said before, it is possible that the pre-existent Jesus was acting in his Father YHWH’s name and was thus said by the writer of judges to be YHWH, according to the Shaliach principle of agency. However, some people claim that the pre-existent Jesus is the angel of YHWH in the OT. However, it does seem strange that when Jesus gives an account of Moses and the Burning Bush, if he was actually the angel of YHWH, that he does not mention it. Stephen’s account of the Burning Bush also makes no mention of Jesus being the angel of YHWH. Note also that in Matthew 1:20, that the angel of YHWH appeared to Joseph in a dream AFTER Mary had conceived.
Peter did not say that his encounter with the/an angel of YHWH was Jesus (Acts 12:11)
INTERPRETATION 2
That YHWH mentioned in Genesis 18:1 is actually the angel(s) of YHWH acting in the name of the Father. Examples of the Angel of Yahweh being called Yahweh are provided later in this comment. I think that this is more probable, as God has always used angels in the past to execute his wrath and will do so in the future according to the Book of Revelation. Also, in Genesis 19:24, we see that ‘the LORD (YHWH) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (YHWH) out of heaven;
We know that two angels were sent to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, and we also know that when Lot was told by the two angels that they were sent to destroy the city (Gen 19:13), Lot immediately understood that by His angels ‘.. the LORD will destroy this city. (Gen 19:14 above). For Lot, the action of YHWH’s angels was synonymous with YHWH in heaven destroying the city. In addition to the action of His angels on the ground acting in His Name, we see that YHWH in heaven raining down fire from above- again, probably through His angels in heaven acting in His Name.
When the Queen of England or the President of the USA go to war, they do not actually go and fight themselves, they send their troops. Even though it is the troops who actually destroy the enemy, it would not be incorrect to say that the Queen or the President destroyed their enemies. It would have obviously been through the actions of their troops.
1 Chronicles 21:15 KJV
15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD (YHWH) stood by the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite.
INTERPRETATION 3
YHWH mentioned in Genesis 18:1 is actually a manifestation of YHWH himself.
If angels can appear in the form of a human, it is certainly a possibility (however unlikely), that YHWH himself could appear in the FORM of a human, disguising His glory so that he could appear before men. We know that angels are invisible and that the Father is invisible. Yet the Father appeared in the form of a human WITH Christ to Daniel in a night vision:
Daniel 7:9-10 KJV
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Daniel 7:13-14 KJV
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
Stephen also saw Jesus standing with the Father (Acts 7:55)
The Father was in the form of a human in the Book of Revelation when Jesus takes the book from His Father’s hand (Rev 5:7).
Examples of the Shaliach principle of agency in Scripture relating to Jesus and Angels of YHWH:.
Many examples of this can be found in the scripture. Jesus himself followed the concept:
John 5:23 KJV
23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Also:
John 12:44-45 KJV
44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
Matthew 10:40 KJV
40 He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
John 13:20 KJV
20 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Matthew 18:5 KJV
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
Galatians 4:14 KJV
14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
Please note Galatians 4:14 (KJV) above. Apart from being a celestial being, the meaning of ‘Angel’ is ‘ messenger’. Here Paul is suggesting that he is received as Jesus in the sense of meaning, and not in terms of being. In my opinion, this verse actually differentiates Jesus from the angel of God, which as we have seen through the Shaliach principle have in some cases been called YHWH when they acting in His name.
However, let’s look at Genesis 19:24 KJV again:
Genesis 19:24 KJV
24 Then the LORD (YHWH) rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD (YHWH) out of heaven;
Are there other instances where angels have been called Yahweh/YHWH in scripture?
Yes.
Here the Shaliach principle has been employed again:
Genesis 16:7-13 KJV
7 And the angel of the LORD (YHWH) found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
8 And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
9 And the angel of the LORD (YHWH) said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
10 And the angel of the LORD (YHWH) said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
11 And the angel of the LORD (YHWH) said unto her, Behold, thou art with child and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD (YHWH) hath heard thy affliction.
12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
13 And she called the name of the LORD (YHWH) that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?
Please note v13. She calls the Angel of YHWH by the name of YHWH.
The account of the Burning Bush:
Exodus 3:1-14 KJV
3 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
2 And the angel of the LORD (YHWH) appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4 And when the LORD (YHWH) saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.
7 And the LORD (YHWH) said, I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows;
8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.
9 Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them.
10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.
11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, and that I should bring forth the children of Israel out of Egypt?
12 And he said, Certainly I will be with thee; and this shall be a token unto thee, that I have sent thee: When thou hast brought forth the people out of Egypt, ye shall serve God upon this mountain.
13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Note that the Angel of YHWH is called YHWH, but he is still an angel!
Compare the above with Jesus’ account below in Mark 12:26:
Mark 12:26 KJV
26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
The Shaliach principle has been used again.
Now let’s look at the story of Gideon, where the angel of YHWH speaks for YHWH and the text says it is YHWH speaking. The Shaliach principle again:
Judges 6:11-16 KJV
11 And there came an angel of the LORD (YHWH), and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.
12 And the angel of the LORD (YHWH) appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD (YHWH) is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.
13 And Gideon said unto him, Oh my Lord, if the LORD (YHWH) be with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where be all his miracles which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not the LORD (YHWH) bring us up from Egypt? but now the LORD (YHWH) hath forsaken us, and delivered us into the hands of the Midianites.
14 And the LORD (YHWH) looked upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and thou shalt save Israel from the hand of the Midianites: have not I sent thee?
15 And he said unto him, Oh my Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is poor in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father’s house.
16 And the LORD (YHWH) said unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man.
Judges 6:20-23 KJV
20 And the angel of God (YHWH) said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so.
21 Then the angel of the LORD (YHWH) put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the angel of the LORD (YHWH) departed out of his sight.
22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an angel of the LORD (YHWH), Gideon said, Alas, O LORD (YHWH) God! for because I have seen an angel of the LORD (YHWH) face to face.
23 And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die.
Here, in v13, Gideon did not know that the speaker was the angel of YHWH, but you can see that in v14 the angel of the Lord now takes on the name YHWH directly by the WRITER. But, he is still not Yahweh, as is clarified later in the passage!
Now let’s look at the story of Manoah, the father of Samson:
Judges 13:21-22 KJV
21 But the angel of the LORD (YHWH) did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD (YHWH).
22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God (YHWH).
The Shaliach principle again.
CONCLUSION: Although I believe that all three interpretations are possible, I believe the weight of scriptural evidence suggests to me that in all probability we find the Angel of YHWH in Genesis 18:1 and at Genesis 18:22. We will ultimately find out the truth of the matter when our Lord Jesus Christ returns.
It should also be said, however, that in NONE of the interpretations can a RC Trinity Doctrine be extracted without wishful thinking and an over active imagination.
DEALING WITH YOUR POINT ON ISAIAH 6:3:
Saying ‘Holy’ three times does not imply the RC Trinity. It is merely stressing God’s Holiness emphatically. To derive the RC Trinity from this would be stretching the imagination to the extreme.
DEALING WITH YOUR POINT ABOUT JOHN:
Bill’s comment: “John, and Arians in general, believe that Jesus is a god, and the Father is the God. So they believe in 2 gods. That makes them polytheists. That isn’t what I believe, and isn’t applicable to me.”
My comment: Actually, it is because you misunderstand John that you say that you do not believe John, the disciple who actually walked with Jesus. John has always maintained that the True God is the Father, and that the Son Jesus was handed Judgement so that all men should honour the Son as they honour the Father, even as Jesus maintains that he is the Christ, Son of God, and that the Father is the True God. What I find amazing is your arrogance.
DEALING WITH YOUR REMAINING ISSUES:
Well, now that I have cleared up your eisegesis of John 8:24, 8:58, Genesis 18:1 and Isaiah 6:3, you will hopefully see that there really is no reason to believe in the RC Trinity at all and I am glad to hear that you agree with me that believing in the RC Trinity is not necessary for salvation. Unfortunately, what you don’t yet realise is that a belief in the RC* Trinity will definitely lose you your salvation. Why? Because you have created a different God to the God of Jesus. Jesus’ God is my God. The God of the Bible is my God.
Now,Bill, you can play infantile word games and trickery, duck and dive all day long, believe in the RC Trinity or whatever you want, but what are you actually achieving? Deep down, you know you are not being honest with yourself. Your Triune God is not the God of the Bible. Trust me, if I can believe John 3:16- which is backed up by Isaiah 53 and many other prophecies- I would believe the RC Trinity doctrine if it was there- but it just isn’t. There is not a single prophecy in the Bible that speaks of this doctrine. In fact, for it to be there, we would actually not be reading the Bible in its current form, it would have had to be re written in order to make any sense. And that’s why your RC Trinity doctrine is by nature a shape shifter. God changes into whatever form it suits you depending on the scripture presented to you. The word ‘God’ takes on a different meaning according to your mood.
(I say*‘RC Trinity’ because it is a well known fact that no such doctrine is to be found or even mentioned in the Old or New Testaments and that the first signs of such a concept first appeared between the second and third century AD. It was then finely tuned by the RC church and became formal doctrine by the fourth century, with the aid of the pagan Roman Emperor Constantine who had the overriding power. If in doubt, check it out. )
Your first answer to my questions demonstrates this shape shifting remarkably well. In my last two previous mails:.
I said :
“Now, you say you believe that Yahweh is Jesus, but that no Trinitarian believes that Jesus is the Father. This is a contradiction in terms. Yahweh IS the Father:
Matthew 22:32 ESV
‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not God of the dead, but of the living.”
I asked:“.Do you agree that Jesus is here referring to his Father?”
You replied “He’s not speaking of the Father alone. He’s speaking of God. Oftentimes, the New Testament refers to the Father as God and Jesus as Lord. But not always”.
MY COMMENT: Bill, your comment that Jesus is not speaking of his Father alone is a shameful lie. Your answers to my later questions below confirm that you are lying. You see, it is inconceivable that Jesus was thinking of anybody else but his Father YHWH, the name of the God of the Torah which is universally acknowledged for more than the past three thousand years. Anyone with even half a brain cell could tell you this. When Jesus made this statement, he was speaking to Jews. They would have called him a raving lunatic if he claimed that their one God YHWH was actually a ‘Triune God’ of which he himself was a person. This then brings up the next point where you have been deceived. You do not even understand that the term’ Father’ when spoken of by Jesus in the Bible, refers to Jesus’ own Father, the Lord God YHWH Almighty. You are so wrapped up in the doctrine of the RC Trinity and the mistaken belief that Gen 18:1-2 can only mean that the being called YHWH was actually Jesus, who in turn becomes Yahweh Himself, rather than acting in Yahweh’s Name, that you cannot even answer a simple question honestly and say that Jesus is referring to His Father YHWH in Matthew 22:32 above.
But just to humour you, if Jesus is referring to God then, but you insist that this God is not the Father, who is this God? Please answer this.
You said:
“Oftentimes, the New Testament refers to the Father as God and Jesus as Lord. But not always”.
MY COMMENT: Yes, obviously, because they are two separate individuals and are not the same – but what has that got to do with my specific question?
Where is your scriptural proof that Jesus is not referring to His Father here, but is in fact referring to some other God?
And what of the fact that in your reply to my next question you then say that “Yahweh is the one true God. The Father is Yahweh”?:
I had asked:
“You say that Yahweh is not Jesus’ Father, but say that Yahweh is Jesus, who then is Jesus’ Father?”
You replied:
I never said that Yahweh is not the Father. Yahweh is the one true God. The Father is Yahweh. The Son is Yahweh. The Holy Spirit is Yahweh. Jesus is referred to as Yahweh in Genesis 18:1, Isaiah 6:3 (No one has seen the Father, but people have seen Yahweh).”
MY COMMENT: Bill, if Yahweh is the One True God and the Father is Yahweh, by definition the Son cannot be Yahweh, particularly when the Son states in the John 17:3 that the Father is the one true God and that the Son has been sent by him!
I had asked :
“3. What name do the Jews and Jewish Christians traditionally give to the Father of Jesus? 4. What is the name of the God of the Torah which is universally acknowledged for more than the past three thousand years. 5. What is the name of the God that Jesus says is his Father?”
You said: “Yahweh or the LORD”
MY COMMENT: In Matthew 22:32 above there is no grounds whatsoever for saying that Jesus is not referring to YHWH, his Father. I say again, please provide scriptural proof that Jesus is not referring to his Father.
You said in your last mail:
“The Trinity is one being in three persons. There is no analogy to help you understand. There is nothing else on earth like Him. However, just because there is no being like Him, doesn’t mean that the Trinity violates any laws of logic.”
MY COMMENT : Please explain the following in terms of your RC trinity doctrine:
1 Corinthians 8:6 KJV
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Please note, before you answer this, that here the One God is ONLY the Father, and not some ‘Triune God’
Now Bill, in your last mail you said:
“Trinitarians believe that there is one God in three persons. The Father is God. The Son is God. The Holy Spirit is God. But, the Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit.”
We both know your RC Trinity doctrine falls apart if any of the above rules are broken. So far, you have refused to acknowledge/or have duped yourself into thinking it still remains intact. Well, let me sober you up a bit.
What does Paul have to say?
2 Corinthians 3:14-4:5 KJV
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
4 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.
So Paul says Christ IS the Spirit??
Oops.
Sorry to inform you Bill and Sudheer, but your RC Trinity Doctrine just died.
Shailin@
According to you:
Who is Jesus, Who is Jehovah and Who is Holy spirit?
Who is GOD?
what is concept of GOD?
A = Jehovah 1 = α and Ω
B = Jehovah 2 = α and Ω
C = Jehovah 3 = α and Ω
JEHOVAH = GOD = A+B+C = α and Ω
No one can see GOD
A < B+C
B < A+C
C < A+B
Glory of A = Glory of B = Glory of C = α and Ω
GOD = Glory of (A+B+C)
A reduced to A- = Jesus
A- < A
A- got his glory back A and became A+Flesh =A+
GOD = (A+) + B+C
+ = Image of GOD
Jesus is the visible image invisible GOD.
Bill@ Am I correct?
I wouldn’t say Jehovah 1, 2, 3. There is one God. His name is Yahweh or Jehovah.
Yes you are correct. God is one his name is Jehovah.
1,2,3 are representations of 3 beings/personalitis of God
Father, Son and Holy spirit.
@ Sudheer:
Of course, Sudhir- I had already explained this to you in my post of
September 27, 2012 at 9:36 pm!
@ Sudheer- sorry, I stated your name incorrectly as ‘Sudhir’ in my post of September 27,2012
Shailin@
It is unfortunate that you have not understood the concept of Trinity. Could you please tell me what is your understand about Jesus in your own words. Is he GOD or not, Is he Jehovah or not?
Jesus who was Jehovah one among the trinity reduced to human form and behaved as pure human to overcome the sin. He left his heavenly glory with GOD (Father + Holy spirit) while he was lived as son of man. after he rose from the dead he ascended to heaven and took back his heavenly Glory and rejoined as (Father+Son+Holy spirit) it is a mystery.
Kidly please see my below post dated 28 sep 2012 1:54 pm. and aswer!!
In heaven Father and Son of man together were worshipped by every one in heaven. If GOD is different and Jesus is not GOD how come God allowed others to give their prises, Glory and worship to Lamb which is only supposed to GOD alone? Rev 5:13-14
Shailin@
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. – 1 Timothy 3:16
———–Think about below statement of Jesus—–
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father – John 6: 46
It is an indirect message that who ever has seen Jehovah in old testament actually saw the Jehovah who is Jesus!!!! not the Father.
You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form (John 5:37).
For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved” (Gen. 32:30).
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known. – John 1: 18
As per statement of Jesus no one saw the father, who ever claimed that they saw Jehovah actually saw Jesus. so Jesus is Jehovah one among the Trinity.
—————————————-
the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome – Dt. 10:17
Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings – Rev. 17:14
Who is Lord of Lords? Jesus or Jehovah?
————————————-
he(ord Almighty) will be a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall
‘A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall.’ They stumble because they disobey the message–which is also what they were destined for (1 Pet. 2:7,8).
Who is Stone here? Jesus or Jehovah?
————————–
God and a Savior; there is none but me (Isa. 45:21).
his Son to be the Savior of the world (1 John 4:14).
Who is Saviour Jehovah or Jesus?
—————————
Now you tell me Who is Jesus?
@Sudheer, I seem to have overlooked your question but please see my reply (havefaithinjesus) to Bill on October 3, 2012 at 11:59 am, your questions are also answered.
God created us in his shape and nature.we have body,mind and spirit in us same way god too have these three
Interesting!
Great article!
I personally question the reason you labeled this
particular article, “Proving to Jehovahs Witnesses that Jesus is
God Fisher of Men”. Anyway I actually admired the post!
Regards,Leoma
why would the bible have two different names the Jehovah and jesus? Why would he call upon his self when he could clearly stop what was about to happen to him?
Diana,
God is referred to in many ways other than just Jesus and Yahweh.
I’m not sure I understand the 2nd question. Jesus didn’t call upon Himself. He could have stopped the crucifixion. But He wanted to do the will of the Father.
Thanks,
Bill
I’m speaking on the part where he says my God my God why have you forsaken me? Yes but there’s many gods that people believe in shouldn’t we call him by his one name,
Hi Diana,
So are you asking when Jesus said, “my God my God why have you forsaken me?” if He is talking to Himself? Trinitarians don’t believe Jesus is the Father. He wasn’t talking to Himself. He was praying to the Father.
The Father, Son and Holy Spirit have had fellowship from eternity past. Why if the Son takes on flesh would He stop having fellowship with the Father?
Are you a Jehovah’s Witness? What are your beliefs on this topic?
Thanks,
Bill
I am not a Jehovah witness but having a bible I have come by the name Jehovah so many time and it made me question it.how could jesus and Jehovah are only one person?
Why couldn’t he just put jesus , So this makes more sense to me that Jehovah is the father almighty and jesus is his son
Hi Diana,
There are so many analogies for the Trinity that don’t really work. What helped me understand is just more properly defining the terms. The Trinity is one God (or one being) in three persons. God is unlike any other being on earth. There is nothing we can compare Him to.
A brick has being, but no personhood. You and I are each one human being, and one person. We are one person in one being. God is three persons in one being. We may never really grasp that, as we have no experience of anything on earth like Him. But that is what the Bible teaches.
There is a lot of good articles on this site:
http://carm.org/trinity
Thanks,
Bill
I’m only 16 and clearly not as knowledgable as many of you but I know my bible and I know what I believe in. Try reading the bible from the beginning, genesis is the book everyone ( Christian or not) knows. This is where god says ” let US make man in OUR image”!! Isn’t that proof enough that god is not merely one but actually backs up the Trinity! The father, the son and the Holy Spirit are all one and if you don’t see that you are sorely misguided! You can study the bible any way you want to and twist verses to mean whatever you want but in the end god is our judge and witness and you will be held accountable for everything you’ve done. Man cannot twist the words of god and it is utter stupidity to follow the doctrine of a man who claimed he knew the truth but was proved again and again that he was wrong! Gods word is truth and complete in itself. All answers are found in the bible and not books changed and edited for the authors satisfaction.
I hope and pray that one day god will reveal himself to you in his fullness and your life will be changed so that eternity with him is yours for the taking.
God bless
Jesus never verified what Paul wrote thus indicating any made up stories can be present in the New Testament.
None of the Church Fathers were shown to quote Matthew 28:19 or 1John5:7 in their early days, however in the 4th century conceptology of ‘three gods in oneness’ were added to the original texts of Matthew 28:19 and 1John 5:7 thus showing how twisted were the minds of men inventing lies.
Early Church Fathers believed that there is only One Father the creator, creating all including God Son and Holy Spirit.
Hello,
I agree that 1 John 5:7 is not original. Matt. 28:19 is original, but I wouldn’t use that verse to show the deity of Christ.
I find it interesting that no one here has ever attempted to refute my interpretation of the verses in the original post (which I wrote in 2007). When someone wants to post something without responding to the original argument, it’s kind of like changing the subject.
Also, when you say ‘three gods in oneness’ you reveal that you don’t understand the teaching of the Trinity. I’d be happy to try to explain it to you, but straw men don’t further the discussion.
Thanks for your comment. I hope to hear back from you soon.
Bill
All cults try to diminish the deity of Christ. Unless he was fully God however, his sacrifice would not have been complete enough to save anyone. I don’t argue with folks anymore. After 30+ years I’ve learned that unless a person is seeking truth he won’t listen. Augustine of Hippo said: “If you believe what you like in the Gospel, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the Gospel you believe, but yourself.” The Lutheran idea of “Grace alone, Faith alone, Scripture alone.” works for me.
I agree it would be extremely rare (or never) that a Jehovah’s Witness would get saved on a Christian’s doorstep after hearing biblical truth. That wouldn’t be my goal. However, we will have these conversations with them, and you never know what will come of it later. If we are using God’s Word, it will do it’s work.
Thanks for your comment.
Can I ask why do christians and catholic bible books have jehovah written in they”re pages and what does jehovah mean?
Hello Deana,
Most Bibles say “LORD” rather than Jehovah. A more accurate term is Yahweh (rather than Jehovah, they are the same word translated differently).
This is because Jews refuse to pronounce or write the proper name of God and would write YHWH and say adonai, which means Lord. Look up “Tetragrammaton” for more info.
Where can I find “TRINITY” in the bible? Can anyone here give me a clear verse about TRINITY? As I am reading through the whole discussion, I am more convinced that Jesus is the son of God and that Jehovah is his father and the Almighty God and that there is no such thing as Jehovah is also Jesus. I just noticed also, why Mr. Bill can’t answer the question of the person named anonymous? It is very important for me to know since my family believes on trinity but this is already causing me deep confusions.
Sorry English is not my first language..
Hello Shannen,
Here is a good article on the Trinity:
http://carm.org/trinity
What question from Anonymous are you referring to?
Thanks,
Bill
Also, how do you explain this verse in the bible in John 3:16 that says:
16 For God so loved the world that HE gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Who is the HE and the Son mentioned in the verse? I don’t think they are just one. Why would the author complicate the whole verse if only he mean 1 God? He could have at least mentioned For God so loved the world that he gave HIMSELF or sent HIMSELF to earth? Why the heck he mentioned Son? This confused me a lot, honestly..
Shannen,
“He” is God the Father. Jesus is the Son.
Trinitarians don’t believe that the Father and the Son are “just one.” They are separate and distinct persons.
God didn’t send Himself or give Himself. The Father sent the Son. In order to understand what Trinitarians believe, seek out a knowledgeable Trinitarian. That is the only logical course of action. I’m also happy to help any way I can.
Thanks,
Bill
Bill,
I qoute, God is a trinity of persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Father is not the same person as the Son; the Son is not the same person as the Holy Spirit; and the Holy Spirit is not the same person as Father. They are not three gods and not three beings. They are three distinct persons; yet, they are all the one God. Each has a will, can speak, can love, etc., and these are demonstrations of personhood. They are in absolute perfect harmony consisting of one substance. They are coeternal, coequal, and copowerful. If any one of the three were removed, there would be no God. (See also, “Another Look at the Trinity”)
It mentioned there that THEY ARE COETERNAL. COEQUAL AND COPOWERFUL, meaning again they are EQUAL right? How come Jesus said “THE FATHER IS GREATER THAN I AM” in John 14:28? So therefore, they are not equal?
Hi Shannen,
In one sense, I could say my boss is greater than I. In another sense, we are equal as human beings. Context is everything. In John 14:28, Jesus was speaking of His human nature.
Here’s a good article with some other verses to look at.
http://carm.org/religious-movements/jehovahs-witnesses/john-1428-father-greater-i
Thanks,
Bill
but let us remember also that the mentioned verse is coming from the word of Jesus and it’s very clear, he did not claim himself equal with His father. I can’t see any significance in comparing the verse with a boss to an employee nor to us human being for WE are imperfect and God and his Son Jesus are perfect.
Bill,
Colossians 1:15-17
15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Please notice the above verse, it clearly says that Jesus is the firstborn over all creation. Therefore, his Father made him and he has the beginning. In that sense, of course he can’t be equal with His father.
John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'”
Isn’t it very clear to read and understand when Jesus himself called His father his God? A sign of respect and he knows himself that His father is truly greater than him and that they can’t be equal.
One more thing Mr. Bill, I have been making research about TRINITY and I wanted to get clear answers from the bible itself and not from a mere opinion from individuals or from internet sites, unfortunately I can’t find a strong hold or firm justification in the bible. Can you please help me site even a single verse in the bible that can help me understand trinity?
Thank you..
Bill,
While reading and learning thoroughly about trinity, I’ve learned that in this doctrine there’s three (3) persons in one (1) God and therefore 3 CREATORS AS WELL. But in Isaiah 44:24, it says, it has only ONE CREATOR, the almighty God. I now starting to see the conflict between the doctrine of trinity and the bible. What I have understood in the bible, there is a Father the almighty God, the Son of God who is Jesus, and the God’s spirit. Meaning, only one God and that is the Father and that Jesus is the son which makes him inferior to his Father.
In John 20:17 – Jesus said “My God”, and when you say “my God”, it also means “My superior, my supreme being and my creator”.
Thanks..
Hello Shannen,
It also says that Jesus created everything, and all things were created for Him. Does your theology allow for Jesus to be the Creator and for all things to be created for Him?
What is your interpretation of Jesus being the firstborn? Do you think it could mean that He is preeminent over all creation?
If Jesus took on flesh and submitted to the law as a human, do you think He would live as an atheist? He must have no other gods before Yahweh. Don’t you think He would pray to the Father? Your objection just shows that you haven’t really thought very hard about this.
Colossians 1:15-17, which you’ve already cited, blows your understanding out of the water. Jesus is the one Creator. The Father is the one Creator. There is one God who created everything. I’m not saying it’s easy to understand. There is no other being in the universe like HIM!! Praise God! He is unique and glorious and worthy of our praise! You don’t have to understand it, just repent of your erroneous thinking and trust in Christ alone.
In John 5:19, Jesus said, “Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever [e]the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.”
My question to you is are you going to focus here on the fact that Jesus said He can do nothing of Himself, or are you going to focus on where He said He can do WHATEVER the Father does?
A few verses later, Jesus said, “…so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father.”
So, you’re mistaken when you say Jesus didn’t claim equality with the Father.
Well then why are you talking to me? Put down the Watchtower mag and go read your Bible. God will either save you and grant you an understanding of this, or He won’t. I used to have long, drawn-out conversations here, but I realized I was just re-typing the same things over and over. If you really need me to do that, I’m willing to for the sake of your eternity. However, don’t pretend that I’m referring you to sites that aren’t biblical, or that my comments aren’t biblical. That’s hogwash.
Look at the original post I wrote here in June 2007. If you look through the comments, you’ll see that no one has even attempted to respond to the post. Everyone just tries to bring up their pet verses. Look at the other articles I’ve posted on this site or on carm.org. Are you willing to do that, or do I have to type it out especially for you?
It’s a prescription for disaster to pick a handful of pet verses and turn a blind eye to the avalanche of verses teaching that Jesus is Yahweh. I’ve seen all the verses you’re citing a hundred times, and they have enriched my understanding of who God is. Is it possible that the doctrine of the Trinity is just more complex than you might understand?
Are you a Jehovah’s Witness, or are you studying with the Jehovah’s Witnesses? Are you really studying this with an open mind or are you looking for a debate?
Thanks,
Bill
In his response to my mail, concerning the triune god, Bill agreed with me and said in his post on September 30,2012 at 9.21pm
Bill said, quote:
“….Believing in the Trinity, isn’t necessary for salvation, but denying that Jesus is the I AM would mean you’re not saved (John 8:24, 58).” End of quote.
So, Bill again contradicts himself when he tells Shannen, quote:
“You don’t have to understand it, just repent of your erroneous thinking and trust in Christ alone.” End of quote.
Have you changed your mind again, Bill? And what do you mean, “You don’t have to understand it? Remember that the concept of a triune god is NOT mentioned in the Bible, and even the word ’trinity’ is not there. There is a unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the Bible, but not in the sense you imagine. Do you not know that Christians and angels may also be in unity with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but the True God is still the Father alone?
The onus is on YOU, and not me, to prove that your doctrine is in the Bible. Do you not see how ridiculous you sound- on one hand you berate Shannen for not understanding, and then you say it does not matter if he does not understand, he should repent of his erroneous thinking. Why should he believe the lie of a triune god? Trusting in Christ alone is altogether different than believing in a false triune god.
Regarding Bill’s statement about John 8:24 and 8:58, I refuted his claim in my post of October 3, 2012 at 11.59 am. I am STILL waiting for an answer to it.
My first question- Do you admit that you were wrong, Bill?
I invite readers to read it and our entire discussion (please scroll up), it proves that the RC Trinity and its triune god is a false doctrine.
Quoting Bill again in his post on September 30, 2012 at 9.21pm,
Bill said, START OF QUOTE, “You said, “Now the other questions you evaded:
Some more of your contradictory statements pasted below (or please scroll up):”
billphillips says:
August 6, 2007 at 5:16 pm
Steve,
Thanks for your comment.
Why do you believe that the list of titles is meaningless? If Jesus calls Himself the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End, which are names Jehovah has reserved for Himself, He is claiming to be one with God.
I’m saying there is one God. The Father is God. Jesus is God. The Holy Spirit is God.
How many gods do you believe there are? Are you born again?
Thanks,
Bill
. Bill says:
September 9, 2008 at 7:27 pm
John,
If someone worships anyone other than the one true God, they are idolaters (Matthew 4:10, 1st and 2nd Commandments). If you worship Jesus and the Father, then there is no mistaking it, you’re a polytheist.
There is only one God. I have a long list of verses saying so, which you can look at: https://billphillips.wordpress.com/2007/11/02/how-many-gods-are-there/
You said, “My question: Bill, you say you worship Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit as Gods. Would you say that you are a Polytheist and idolater then, as you say in your above post?”
First of all, that is a false accusation. I don’t worship “Gods” and have never said that I do. There is only one God and I worship Him alone. He is one God in 3 persons.
Putting false accusations aside, the question is based on your faulty interpretation of what I say. There is a context to every conversation. The same words have different meanings in different contexts.
John, and Arians in general, believe that Jesus is a god, and the Father is the God. So they believe in 2 gods. That makes them polytheists. That isn’t what I believe, and isn’t applicable to me.”END OF QUOTE
My second question, Bill, and please read this carefully, according to you then, the Apostle John believes that Jesus is ‘a god’, and the Father is ‘the God’, so he believes in two gods, and so he is a polytheist- but you believe the Father is ‘the God’, the Son is ‘the God’, and the Holy Spirit is ‘the God’- but say you believe in one God- and you say that you are not a polytheist??
So, are the Father, Son and Holy Spirit all the same, or are they different? Are you a polytheist? Are you a follower of one of the pagan religions?
Let me remind you, Bill, you said in your post to Shannen, quote:
“A few verses later, Jesus said, “…so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father.So, you’re mistaken when you say Jesus didn’t claim equality with the Father.” End of quote.
So Bill, just to clarify, you say that Jesus is equal to God, but he is not the same, but that he is ‘God’, but not a ‘god’, and so you say that this does not make you a believer in more than one God?
Then, according to your own admission, you are a polytheist. Wake up!
Bill, since I follow the follow the Word of God, I believe what Jesus, the Apostle John and all the other Apostles say, and not the false doctrine you promote.
1 Corinthians 8:6 KJV
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
Bill, please answer my questions.
Bill,
By the way, I’ve read Psalms 90:2 it says;
2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Jesus was the first born of all creation, therefore he had a beginning, he was created. Whereas the Father has no beginning and no end as written in Psalms 90:2. So there’s only one God and the appropriate name you can call Jesus is THE SON OF GOD.
thanks
Hallo Shannen, sorry to intrude on your debate with Bill, but he has made some accusations concerning previous posts which I could not leave unanswered.
Hello havefaithinJesus888,
The problem is that you don’t understand what Trinitarians believe, and a lot of your arguments against it don’t make any sense.
In order to show someone the error of their ways, you have to accurately represent what they believe, which you haven’t taken the time to do. I don’t have any desire to respond to your questions.
Thanks,
Bill
Bill,
In response to your post of March 5,2014 at 9:18pm,
I have taken more than enough time to represent what you believe.
I am not at all surprised that you are unwilling to answer my questions – because based on your own responses to previous correspondence on this site – which I pasted in my replies – it is obvious that you yourself do not even understand what you believe and cannot explain all your contradictory statements and changes of mind. When presented with them, you rightly baulk and fear, because you know that you are expected to start using your brain- and if and when you do, you are fearful of the conclusion.Until then, no doubt you will obtain comfort in the usual RC Trinitarian crutch, ‘ the triune god cannot be understood.’
Incidentally, the CARM website you keep referring others to repeats the same response as you to those who point out the painfully obvious. When faced with a difficult question, the response will be along the lines of either or both, ‘the triune god cannot be understood’ or ‘ you do not understand what we are saying because you do not understand the concept of what we teach’.
I wrote to CARM some time ago, requesting Mr Matt Slick to respond. Their office invited me for a radio debate. I replied that I would prefer to have a written correspondence, so that there would be no misunderstandings. I did not receive a reply, and I am still waiting.
You see, I know that the false doctrine you teach is really a word game to deceive the innocent -and you have been deceived.
Why does CARM not want a written debate? Simply because, as in your case, it would be easy for any questioner to check back and present all the contradictory responses and present them back again. For which the questioner would receive no answer, unless it be one or both I referred to previously.
Take your head out of the sand, Bill.
Nearly three years on, and I just can’t believe that no one here has picked up on my last point in my post of Oct. 3, 2012, 11:59 am, I was being mischievous- and probably scared off a number of RC trinity doctrine followers in the process – but I don’t actually believe that is the meaning of what Paul said in the passage. For disproving the RC trinity, there are two excellent examples, 1 Cor 8:6 and John 17:3 , as well as 1 Cor 15:20-28 – amongst a multitude – and to believe in a ‘triune’ god is nonsensical in the face of the truth.
So when Paul said, 2 Cor 3:17 ‘Jesus is that spirit’, what did he mean?
From the context, the meaning Paul intended to be derived was not so much as ‘Jesus is the/that spirit’ literally, but rather ‘is the essence of’, or the ’embodiment of the/that spirit’, as when talking of ‘lifting of the veil’ when turning to Jesus and the New Covenant and the ministry of the spirit as opposed to the veil still being in place when Moses and the Old Covenant of the Law is read. 2 Cor 3:14:the veil on the old covenant is taken away when we read the gospel of Christ, and so the prophecies in the old covenant only make sense in Christ – the prophecies were pointing to Christ.
2Cor 3:6 Who has made us able ministers of the New Testament; NOT OF THE LETTER but of the SPIRIT: for the letter kills, but the spirit gives life.
Paul is referring to Christ as being ‘that spirit’ as in the sense above.
Paul is trying to say that Christ and his life’s teaching is the embodiment of that spirit, in the same vein as in ‘whoever hears me, hears the one who sent me, whoever sees me, sees the Father (i.e.,perceives/ sees the Father who sent me)’.
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
When one turns to Christ and believes then one receives the gift of the Holy Spirit. The spirit is the spirit of truth that comes from God and teaches us about Christ and God. Jesus said he is the truth, meaning he represents his Father’s truth. The principle of shaliach applies. Remember, Paul is contrasting the reading of the old covenant teaching with the new covenant teaching of Christ. Christ said elsewhere that the doctrine he was teaching was not his own but his Father’s who sent him. 2 Cor 3:3 refers to the spirit of the Living God. This can only be referring to to the Father. We are told in the Bible that God sent the spirit without measure UPON Jesus. This implies that he also sends the spirit ‘with measure’ on others so it cannot literally be Jesus, unless one says that when the holy spirit was sent upon Jesus that he was being restored in some measure to his former self. It does not seem plausible to me that Jesus would somehow be measured out or poured out on people in varying degrees.
Another time Jesus said he would send the comforter, the spirit, ‘in his name’, to teach followers about him and to discern the truth. It does not make sense that Jesus literally is the spirit as then he would not say that he would send the spirit ‘in his name’ ( it certainly does not make sense that he would say that he would send himself) – but he would simply just say ‘I will come again’; just as he said he came in his Father’s name and that he was sent by his Father, we know that when Jesus said he came in his Father’s name, that he was not claiming to be the Father, but that he was acting in his name, having been sent and given authority by the Father.
So similarly, when Jesus says ‘I will ask the Father and he will send the spirit in my name’, it means that the spirit comes from the Father and is acting in his (Jesus and his Father’s) name, on their behalf.
This is how we square ‘I and my Father will come and dwell in your hearts’.
Paul is trying to say that Christ and the doctrine he teaches is the essence of the spirit of the Living God and this new teaching of the New Covenant. This is borne out as we read further in Corinthians:
2 Corinthians 4:4-7 (KJV)
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
And,
2 Corinthians 4:11-14 (KJV)
11 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.
12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you.
13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;
14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
Verse 13 references Psalm 116. Again, here Paul is saying that we share the same ‘spirit of faith’ as Jesus, the Christ. Paul says that they live their lives according to the example of Christ, ‘that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.’
The following extracts from the Bible which affirm this:
John 7:16-18 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is NOT MINE, but HIS that sent ME. if any man do HIS will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be OF God, OR whether I speak of MYSELF. He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh HIS glory that sent him, then the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
John 7:38-39
He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send IN MY NAME will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
John 15:26 “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you FROM the Father–the Spirit of truth who goes out FROM the Father–he will testify about me.
Just as Jesus is the image of God and represents the mind of or wisdom of God, so the spirit also represents the mind of God. When the spirit is sent in Jesus’name ( and what is the meaning of Jesus name, if not ‘Yahweh Saves’ or ‘Yahweh is Salvation’? ) it confirms and carries God’s seal of approval that Jesus is God’s Christ and that he and the spirit was sent by God, just as when Peter made his statement, Jesus said that God, not man, had revealed this to Peter.When the holy spirit enters a person’s heart then one can say that (the spirit of) Christ and the Father dwell in that person.
When it is written that God gave Christ the spirit without measure, note that Christ said that it was not himself doing the miracles, but that it was God dwelling in him who was doing the miracles.
In Revelation there are seven spirits before God’s throne, and in Isaiah seven spirits rest on Jesus, yet we are told by Paul that there is but one spirit, so these are different aspects of the same spirit, just as Paul says in Corinthians.
When Mary conceived by the holy spirit, we do not know by exactly what process, nor is it necessary to know, but we do know that elsewhere it is said
‘Here I am, send me’.
‘What if you were to see me where I was before’. Jesus was with God before the world began and he came and was sent from God. According to Proverbs, he was the first born of creation. Jesus humbled himself and took on flesh when he became man. How he became man, the Bible tells us, was by the action of the holy spirit. When God says ‘this day I have fathered you’ and ‘this is my Son’, he is talking spiritually, as he sends his spirit without measure upon Jesus in the form of a dove.
Just as God the Father sent Christ, Christ sends us. Christians have the Holy Spirit, but the source is from the Father. Christians are obviously not the Holy Spirit, unless you believe that when Paul says ‘NOW The Lord is that spirit’ he means that now (currently) Christ is the Holy Spirit whereas ‘then’ (i.e. previously) he was not- which is not consistent with the Bible and poses all kinds of problems.
It does not make sense to claim that the risen Christ is the Holy Spirit- we are told in the Bible that Jesus received the spirit from God, that after his resurrection he asked the Father to send it to his followers, and that John the Baptist was filled with the spirit since birth – while Jesus walked the earth!
So to recap, I do not think it is meant that Jesus literally Is the spirit, but that Jesus is the embodiment of the spirit of God, by his life and teaching of the new covenant. Beyond this, I think, as Paul cautions, we begin to tread in doubtful areas and that we ought to ‘avoid those doubtful points’ – which is exactly how the erroneous RC doctrine of the trinity began.
Hi havefaithjesus888, not a problem. I’m more than glad to read more opinions since I’m still learning the bible.
Bill, I’m here to ask question, I ask questions because I’m confused. You mentioned about trinity, and most of the members of my family believe in trinity. However, when I started reading the bible I see conflicts. Perhaps you’re right I misinterpreted some verses but I just couldn’t stop from getting more confused as I read your responses on my comments. A lot of inconsistencies, your way of understanding the verses mentioned is different from my understanding.
By the way, I thought your site is open for opinions, but it seems like you’re now dictating people to believe in you. You can give your opinion but I disagree the way you impose things. If that’s your way of understanding the bible, then be it. But sorry, I continue to ask you questions because well..maybe I got low level of IQ that I couldn’t understand your explanation, but ohh it’s just the way I understand the bible. I can’t find any verse in the bible that could convince me to believe in trinity.
I appreciate your way of explaining things but telling me to repent about my erroneous thinking doesn’t give you the right to say so since you’re not God. He knows only who among us truly understand the bible. We are equal as human being, you may have read and studied the bible long years than me, but it does not give you the assurance that you have a better understanding than me. See, you can’t be that sarcastic if you are able to convince people here that your beliefs and understanding the bible is correct and the rest of us here believe the wrong God? I may be a beginner but somehow I have widen my thoughts in understanding and respecting people who are confused and has so much questions about the bible. You seems to be very sure that you’ll really be saved but somehow I would say, you’re effort is useless since you’re sarcastic and judgmental. If you’re already tired making explanation, I think you should already close this site. The more you wanted to prove something that other religions are believing or misinterpreted the bible makes you even more questionable about your understanding the bible. The more you give verses/explanation the more I get confused as a reader, honestly. Sorry but that’s my opinion and I think I am entitled to it.
Thanks..
Oh I forgot, I thought Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe in trinity, why did you ask me if I am a Jehovah? and what is watchtower you are talking about?
thanks..
Shannen,
You said,
They’re not the same. There is one God in three persons. The Father is not the Son is not the Holy Spirit.
You said,
I agree that would be ludicrous. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit.
You said,
The Father and Son aren’t the same person. The Son has eternally existed, and was never created. Those are titles God has chosen for Himself. Not everything God does is meant to eliminate confusion. Jesus spoke in parables so that some people would not understand.
You said,
I have the right and obligation to tell you to repent and trust in Christ alone, because that is what the Bible teaches. You are wrong if you reject the Trinity, because that is what the Bible teaches. I can’t tell you to repent for not understanding, but I can tell you to repent if you reject the Trinity.
When you present a verse that you think contradicts the Trinity, you are mistaken that it contradicts the Trinity. I’ve seen them all, and I believe what is taught in every one of them. I would invite you to buy a book to help you understand what Trinitarians actually believe. I referred you to a website, because it is free, but I can also recommend a book if you like. I cannot type out a book for you, and I cannot read a book or website on your behalf.
You said,
Jehovah’s Witnesses reject the Trinity. You present many of the same objections as them. I thought you might be one. The Watchtower is their magazine.
You said,
Might I suggest you check out a good book on the topic of the Trinity or check the website that I referred you to? The Forgotten Trinity by James White is excellent. At least you would understand what the doctrine of the Trinity is, even if you ultimately reject it.
Thanks,
Bill
Bill,
I qoute, you said ” My question to you is are you going to focus here on the fact that Jesus said He can do nothing of Himself, or are you going to focus on where He said He can do WHATEVER the Father does?”
Did I mention about Jesus can do nothing of Himself? I don’t remember saying that, and I think you should repent and ask forgiveness to Jesus for saying so. You know what bill? you’re fond of putting words to someone’s mouth. Having a “good foundation” and claiming to deeply understand the bible, you shouldn’t be talking to anyone here that way.
Thanks
Bill,
You can’t even explain trinity in simple mode or even mention a single bible verse more or less it. All you wanted to prove is that Jesus is God, the father is God and the holy spirit is God, yet you claim to only have one God? Aren’t you confusing with your own understanding?
Again, render me a single verse written in the bible about trinity if you want to help me understand it.
Notice this verse, I’m giving myself a try to believe in trinity, but every time I read new verses from the bible it’d eventually contradict with that doctrine.
Matthew 3:16, 17
16 After being baptized, Jesus immediately came up from the water; and look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him. 17 Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”
Why did Jesus call himself if He and the Father is the same? How come He see God’s spirit coming down like a dove and coming upon him, does it mean He saw himself in Godly nature? That’s completely ludicrous, why should the bible make complications if it does not cause a wider explanation? An explanation that tells us that Jesus is the Son of God and He has a Father who is the Almighty God? It’s so simple, but this trinity thingy makes it complicated.
I more thing, if you won’t mind me asking you again, what’s the significance about the word Son and Father if you only meant of one God? Why not use father alone and omit the word son to avoid further confusions?
I’m starting to understand some facts and prophecies about false teaching now. Thanks God I found these verses.
2 Peter 2:1
1But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. 2Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned; 3and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
Acts 20:29, 30
29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30 and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves
For that, I have decided to not to continue making further comments on this site as bible verse mentioned;
1 Timothy 6:3, 4
3 If any man teaches another doctrine and does not agree with the wholesome instruction, which is from our Lord Jesus Christ, nor with the teaching that is in harmony with godly devotion,4 he is puffed up with pride and does not understand anything. He is obsessed with arguments and debates about words. These things give rise to envy, strife, slander, wicked suspicions.
Lastly, I did not visit this site to make debates and argue, it’s not healthy. As I mentioned in my previous comments, I came here to ask questions coz I thought I’d get clear answers and better understand the bible yet only to find false teachers.
Thanks.
God’s word will not return void. Thanks for this site. The truth is anyone who does know scripture knows your site is accomplishing Gods command to us to out into the world and reach men/women for Christ/God. It is just a new way. Each of you who read these sites, well they’ve come into your home etc. And you’ve read more of the bible by reading this site. You should be praying for more efforts such as this to reach people like me who are handicapped and disabled. I looked this up after I just witnessed to two JW who came to my door just this minute. Thank you Lord for this web site, and continue to bless those reaching out for Christ, I pray for all JW and Mormons that they will come to know the truth – In Jesus Name I pray.
God bless you. I’ll pray for the two who came to your door.
Colossians chapter one, verse fifteen very clearly states that Jesus is the “firstborn”. No matter what translation you use. If something or someone is the “firstborn”, it really plainly means that Jesus, when he was in the image of the living God AFTER BEING BORN (created), was a spirit being. And obviously had a beginning, therefore God was his creator. God created him. God is the only person in the universe that never has had a beginning, and he will never have an end. That’s the difference between God and Jesus. One had a beginning, the other didn’t.
So, for billions and billions of years, God was alone. In fact, there wasn’t even time to be counted, for time itself only started when “the word” was created. God is on the outside of time. Yet, now there is a creation, an intelligent creation as spirit and fleshly beings, time can be counted and realised by that creation because they are highly intelligent beings and know exactly how long they’ve existed for.
John chaper one, verse one says, IN THE BEGINNING was “the word” that’s why the New World Translation correctly says later in verse 14 “the word” was made flesh and dwelt among us. . . that’s Jesus coming down from heaven to be a man, in order to give his life as a ransom. Anyone that ignores these Bible facts are ignoring the truth and allowing themselves to go along with man-made ideas. The Bible is its own translator and always will be.
Hi Tony,
Thanks for your comment. Here’s an interesting article about that verse: http://carm.org/religious-movements/jehovahs-witnesses/col-115-firstborn-all-creation
Thanks,
Bill
Hello all. The Churches of Christ salute you. Romans 16:16.
As we strive to follow Christ we should strive to be like the Bareans, receiving the word with all readiness of mind, and searching the scriptures daily, to verify what we’re being taught. Acts 17:11. Here is a link which can help us measure the doctrine of the local congregation, to the doctrine of Christ Jesus, through the Apostles, given by the Holy Ghost.
http://www.oceansidechurchofchrist.net/BibleBasics/acts_of_worship.html
Acts of Worship
What Is The Church?
Organization of the Church
God’s Plan of Salvation
I love you, God loves you, and there’s nothing you can do about it.
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